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#41 thatjimguy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:09 PM

With all this bashing of Pres. Kimball's book, I think it's important to at least consider what parts of it have been implemented into the correlated manuals of the Church. Chapter 4 of the Priesthood and R.S. manual, is all from his book.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball - The Miracle of Forgiveness

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD



Now someone tell me this isn't an endorsement by the church.
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#42 ERMD

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:00 PM

Using quotes from a book does not necessarily equate to an endorsement of the entire work.

I have given this book to people and at the same time have said that there are a few things in it with which I do not completely agree. We then discuss those items as progress is made through the book. In all, I think it is excellent.
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#43 thatjimguy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

Using quotes from a book does not necessarily equate to an endorsement of the entire work.

I have given this book to people and at the same time have said that there are a few things in it with which I do not completely agree. We then discuss those items as progress is made through the book. In all, I think it is excellent.

I would think since we talk about inaccuracies of the Bible, that we would be on the ball to make sure all works we endorse (or implied endorsement) would be of importance. And if we do not want to fix it, then there is the thought that the reason is that we do not want it fixed, because church officials actually believe it is correct.
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#44 ERMD

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:57 PM

Or as in most instances, the Church takes no official stand and allows individuals to decide for themselves.
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#45 Lightbearer

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:02 PM

What about this quote from the book?: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Page 196.

Okay this is perhaps a very insensitive way of putting it, (I had actually forgot this quote which made me cringe when I read it 30 years ago.) It assumes a lot that perhaps culturally for the time it was written was not fully understood. However if a person were to voluntarily participate in such an act, sin would be involved. However as is better understood today, rape generally is not so much a sexual crime as a violent crime. So I would suggest this quote be edited out and the book could still be very helpful in the repentance process. As for the mastrubation quote, I would not change it, while not all who mastrubate are homosexuals the idea of mutual mastrubation as mentioned in that quote could very well be how some develop homosexual tendences regardless of what the P.C. gay agenda of the 21st century tries to claim. But the book is still a valid source in my opinion in spite of this one quote.

Edited by Lightbearer, 30 June 2013 - 04:06 PM.

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#46 canard78

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:26 PM

Are you suggesting what might be truth for one reader of Miracle of Forgiveness could be falsity for another?

--Erik


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#47 canard78

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:57 PM

Now someone tell me this isn't an endorsement by the church.


Of the quotes cited, yes I guess so.

I'm glad they left this one out:

"[Masturbation] too often leads to a grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation - practiced with another person of the same sex - and thence into total homosexuality.


The idea that homosexuality is caused by masturbation (through mutual masturbation) is pretty ridiculous. If my school-friends conversations are anything to go on, they should have all been gay.

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#48 Sevenbak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:14 PM

I don't find it so ridiculous, but part of a symptom of a bigger issue. Do you think there is any connection with the rise in acceptance and participation of ponography to homosexuality? I believe they are connected completely. It's widely available, accepted as normal, as is masturbation, and homosexuality is the same. It's all part and parcel of the same thing.

And remember, Pres. Kimball didn't just say this in his book written in the 60's. He also taught this from the pulpit in General Conference in the 80's. Here's a snip:

http://www.lds.org/g...rality?lang=eng



Self-abuse

Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose “norms” are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice. Anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings.

Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sins of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality. We would avoid mentioning these unholy terms and these reprehensible practices were it not for the fact that we have a responsibility to the youth of Zion that they be not deceived by those who would call bad good, and black white.


Homosexuality

The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. If one has such desires and tendencies, he overcomes them the same as if he had the urge toward petting or fornication or adultery. The Lord condemns and forbids this practice with a vigor equal to his condemnation of adultery and other such sex acts. And the Church will excommunicate as readily any unrepentant addict.

Again, contrary to the belief and statement of many people, this sin, like fornication, is overcomable and forgivable, but again, only upon a deep and abiding repentance, which means total abandonment and complete transformation of thought and act. The fact that some governments and some churches and numerous corrupted individuals have tried to reduce such behavior from criminal offense to personal privilege does not change the nature nor the seriousness of the practice. Good men, wise men, God-fearing men everywhere still denounce the practice as being unworthy of sons and daughters of God; and Christ’s church denounces it and condemns it so long as men and women have bodies which Can be defiled.

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#49 Sevenbak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

Also, apparently the Church thinks the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness is worth having on their website. Here's the clickable link.

http://www.lds.org/b...Forgiveness.txt
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"Now, we have not been using the Book of Mormon as we should. Our homes are not as strong unless we are using it to bring our children to Christ. Our families may be corrupted by worldly trends and teachings unless we know how to use the book to expose and combat the falsehoods in socialism, organic evolution, rationalism, humanism, etc."

 

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#50 BCSpace

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:58 PM

In another thread, I was talking about "secondary doctrine" books. I was given "The Miracle of Forgiveness" at one time by my bishop. Although I pretty much dived into scripture during that time, I could not discern what is truly official and not about the book. So for those who have read it, what is it inside the book that makes it unofficial. What is said that is not truly accurate. Thanks.


The book itself is not published by the Church and it makes no difference that one might be able to order it from the Church or that a Bishop gives it to you read, it's not a doctrinal work. However, that being said, if anything it teaches is also found in a work published by the Church, then that particular thing is doctrine. I think one would be hard pressed to find something in the Miracle of Forgiveness that is not either quoted directly or otherwise taught elsewhere in actual official doctrinal works.
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#51 Tacenda

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

This is going to sound bad, but in regard for medicinal purposes, I think the "m" word has gotten a bad rap. I see it may be necessary for health. Also, it will curb someone from being promiscuous. Not speaking personally at all here. Are there specific scriptures that support our churches views on the matter? If there are, is it revealed from a heavenly source or man made?

Edited by Tacenda, 30 June 2013 - 10:19 PM.

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#52 thatjimguy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:22 PM

Also, apparently the Church thinks the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness is worth having on their website. Here's the clickable link.

http://www.lds.org/b...Forgiveness.txt


The whole text? Yes, This is an endorsement. The entire text. If the church thought something was wrong with something in it, they would correct it before placing it on their own website. They would not let something be incorrect there.
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#53 calmoriah

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:26 PM

The whole text? Yes, This is an endorsement. The entire text. If the church thought something was wrong with something in it, they would correct it before placing it on their own website. They would not let something be incorrect there.

You seem to think that lds.org is infallible. Please provide a source that the Church leadership believes everything on the site is not incorrect.

There are examples of changes that have been made. Why would they be made if not to correct something? Do they try to keep things as correct as possible---certainly. Do they expect that they reach that standard? I highly doubt it.
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#54 canard78

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:45 PM

Delete duplicate (darned smart phone)

Edited by canard78, 30 June 2013 - 10:53 PM.

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"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth." Elder Uchtdorf, What is Truth? January 2013

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#55 canard78

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:52 PM

I don't find it so ridiculous, but part of a symptom of a bigger issue. Do you think there is any connection with the rise in acceptance and participation of ponography to homosexuality? I believe they are connected completely. It's widely available, accepted as normal, as is masturbation, and homosexuality is the same. It's all part and parcel of the same thing.

And remember, Pres. Kimball didn't just say this in his book written in the 60's. He also taught this from the pulpit in General Conference in the 80's. Here's a snip:

http://www.lds.org/g...rality?lang=eng



Self-abuse

Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose “norms” are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice. Anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings.

Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sins of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality. We would avoid mentioning these unholy terms and these reprehensible practices were it not for the fact that we have a responsibility to the youth of Zion that they be not deceived by those who would call bad good, and black white.


Homosexuality

The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. If one has such desires and tendencies, he overcomes them the same as if he had the urge toward petting or fornication or adultery. The Lord condemns and forbids this practice with a vigor equal to his condemnation of adultery and other such sex acts. And the Church will excommunicate as readily any unrepentant addict.

Again, contrary to the belief and statement of many people, this sin, like fornication, is overcomable and forgivable, but again, only upon a deep and abiding repentance, which means total abandonment and complete transformation of thought and act. The fact that some governments and some churches and numerous corrupted individuals have tried to reduce such behavior from criminal offense to personal privilege does not change the nature nor the seriousness of the practice. Good men, wise men, God-fearing men everywhere still denounce the practice as being unworthy of sons and daughters of God; and Christ’s church denounces it and condemns it so long as men and women have bodies which Can be defiled.


Do you have any evidence that the number of people who masturbate and the number of people who have a same-sex attraction is remotely correlated?

Even if he did say it both in a book and a talk, I would suggest this is an example of why his 1980 statement in the fundamentals talk (repeated twice in Oct 2010 gen conf) is wrong when he says a prophet can speak of whatever he wants without qualification.

ETB is unqualified to talk of the medical/biological effects of masturbation and the causes of homosexuality.

Do you agree or disagree with his warning that masterbation causes homosexuality?

About 90% of general population men admit to the former. About 10% of men are gay. How did the 80% manage to avoid the consequences of this prophetic warning. Why do our leaders today say they do not know the causes of SSA when it has already been discussed by ETB? Does that suggest they don't agree with him?

Mods... If the 'm' word is as bad as saying Voldemort in Harry Potter please let me know and I'll drop the conversation. I appreciate it remains a taboo. Just because we discourage it shouldn't make it an 'unmentionable' in my opinion. We openly discuss many other things considered sins.
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"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate, and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth." Elder Uchtdorf, What is Truth? January 2013

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#56 canard78

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

Also, apparently the Church thinks the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness is worth having on their website. Here's the clickable link.

http://www.lds.org/b...Forgiveness.txt


Isn't that for a Braille version?

Can you find a link to if from somewhere else on the actual website of is that a file someone has uploaded to the server for some kind of review process?

It needs the logo usually to imply endorsement. No logo in a txt file :)


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#57 Five Solas

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:16 AM

Much as I admire President Kimball, it's not a book I recommend to people, including in my role as Stake Addiction Recovery Representative. I read it through about three years ago. I've since noticed that it is not on the recommended readings on the LDS combating Pornography site. And I'm certainly glad that no one offered a copy to Elizabeth Smart when she came home. When time permits, I may put together more specifics. In the meantime, the are some very good resources for repentence.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Bethel Park, PA

MOF is taking a real beating on the thread (despite efforts to soften the blows). Interesting because the views Spencer W. Kimball articulated in that work are immediately recognizable to me--that's the church I grew up in. Can you imagine criticism like this (in any forum) by faithful LDS in, say, the early 1980's? But that old church doesn't appear to have many defenders left (certainly not much in evidence around here) while the thinking in SLC continues to evolve in another direction.

While I don't agree with any of Kimball's theology, I have to respect how he put it all out there. Can you imagine someone in LDS leadership today with the audacity to publicly label a centerpiece of Protestant theology, "fallacious doctrines originated by Satan?"

He was a small man in terms of stature (I got to see him once), but large in strength and conviction (however misguided). I'm sure you respect that, Kevin. Do you miss it too?

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#58 Tacenda

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:29 AM

MOF is taking a real beating on the thread (despite efforts to soften the blows). Interesting because the views Spencer W. Kimball articulated in that work are immediately recognizable to me--that's the church I grew up in. Can you imagine criticism like this (in any forum) by faithful LDS in, say, the early 1980's? But that old church doesn't appear to have many defenders left (certainly not much in evidence around here) while the thinking in SLC continues to evolve in another direction.

While I don't agree with any of Kimball's theology, I have to respect how he put it all out there. Can you imagine someone in LDS leadership today with the audacity to publicly label a centerpiece of Protestant theology, "fallacious doctrines originated by Satan?"

He was a small man in terms of stature (I got to see him once), but large in strength and conviction (however misguided). I'm sure you respect that, Kevin. Do you miss it too?

--Erik


My husband is short also, I wish I could post the picture of he and Pres. Kimball standing together, both about the same height. My husband carried it in his scriptures so it got battered. If I were any kind of wife, I'd have gotten it framed. Just dawned on me, duh! My husband and his companion converted a Baptist Minister in Jackson, Mississippi. I guess it was such a big deal they were able to visit with Pres. & Sister Kimball, so there is also a picture with Camilla. I think I need to get my butt in gear and go have them better preserved.
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#59 ERMD

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:34 AM

This is going to sound bad, but in regard for medicinal purposes, I think the "m" word has gotten a bad rap. I see it may be necessary for health. Also, it will curb someone from being promiscuous. Not speaking personally at all here. Are there specific scriptures that support our churches views on the matter? If there are, is it revealed from a heavenly source or man made?


There are no health benefits derived from masturbation.

Evidence, please, that it will "curb someone from being promiscuous." Consider that a CFR.

Maturbation is an act of lust, and we know what the Savior taught about that. I would consider His teachings a heavenly source.
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#60 Garden Girl

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:42 AM

My husband is short also, I wish I could post the picture of he and Pres. Kimball standing together, both about the same height. My husband carried it in his scriptures so it got battered. If I were any kind of wife, I'd have gotten it framed. Just dawned on me, duh! My husband and his companion converted a Baptist Minister in Jackson, Mississippi. I guess it was such a big deal they were able to visit with Pres. & Sister Kimball, so there is also a picture with Camilla. I think I need to get my butt in gear and go have them better preserved.

Hi Tacenda...
I was just going to suggest that you take the pictures to a photo shop to send in for preservation... they can do wonders now... even some of the copy machines can make pretty good copies... at least he could carry a copy and you could put the original photo away for safekeeping...

GG
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