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thatjimguy

Miracle Of Forgiveness

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This is going to sound bad, but in regard for medicinal purposes, I think the "m" word has gotten a bad rap. I see it may be necessary for health. Also, it will curb someone from being promiscuous. Not speaking personally at all here. Are there specific scriptures that support our churches views on the matter? If there are, is it revealed from a heavenly source or man made?

Edited by Tacenda
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Also, apparently the Church thinks the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness is worth having on their website. Here's the clickable link.

http://www.lds.org/b...Forgiveness.txt

The whole text? Yes, This is an endorsement. The entire text. If the church thought something was wrong with something in it, they would correct it before placing it on their own website. They would not let something be incorrect there.

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The whole text? Yes, This is an endorsement. The entire text. If the church thought something was wrong with something in it, they would correct it before placing it on their own website. They would not let something be incorrect there.

You seem to think that lds.org is infallible. Please provide a source that the Church leadership believes everything on the site is not incorrect.

There are examples of changes that have been made. Why would they be made if not to correct something? Do they try to keep things as correct as possible---certainly. Do they expect that they reach that standard? I highly doubt it.

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Delete duplicate (darned smart phone)

Edited by canard78
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I don't find it so ridiculous, but part of a symptom of a bigger issue. Do you think there is any connection with the rise in acceptance and participation of ponography to homosexuality? I believe they are connected completely. It's widely available, accepted as normal, as is masturbation, and homosexuality is the same. It's all part and parcel of the same thing.

And remember, Pres. Kimball didn't just say this in his book written in the 60's. He also taught this from the pulpit in General Conference in the 80's. Here's a snip:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/president-kimball-speaks-out-on-morality?lang=eng

Self-abuse

Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose “norms” are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice. Anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings.

Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sins of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality. We would avoid mentioning these unholy terms and these reprehensible practices were it not for the fact that we have a responsibility to the youth of Zion that they be not deceived by those who would call bad good, and black white.

Homosexuality

The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. If one has such desires and tendencies, he overcomes them the same as if he had the urge toward petting or fornication or adultery. The Lord condemns and forbids this practice with a vigor equal to his condemnation of adultery and other such sex acts. And the Church will excommunicate as readily any unrepentant addict.

Again, contrary to the belief and statement of many people, this sin, like fornication, is overcomable and forgivable, but again, only upon a deep and abiding repentance, which means total abandonment and complete transformation of thought and act. The fact that some governments and some churches and numerous corrupted individuals have tried to reduce such behavior from criminal offense to personal privilege does not change the nature nor the seriousness of the practice. Good men, wise men, God-fearing men everywhere still denounce the practice as being unworthy of sons and daughters of God; and Christ’s church denounces it and condemns it so long as men and women have bodies which Can be defiled.

Do you have any evidence that the number of people who masturbate and the number of people who have a same-sex attraction is remotely correlated?

Even if he did say it both in a book and a talk, I would suggest this is an example of why his 1980 statement in the fundamentals talk (repeated twice in Oct 2010 gen conf) is wrong when he says a prophet can speak of whatever he wants without qualification.

ETB is unqualified to talk of the medical/biological effects of masturbation and the causes of homosexuality.

Do you agree or disagree with his warning that masterbation causes homosexuality?

About 90% of general population men admit to the former. About 10% of men are gay. How did the 80% manage to avoid the consequences of this prophetic warning. Why do our leaders today say they do not know the causes of SSA when it has already been discussed by ETB? Does that suggest they don't agree with him?

Mods... If the 'm' word is as bad as saying Voldemort in Harry Potter please let me know and I'll drop the conversation. I appreciate it remains a taboo. Just because we discourage it shouldn't make it an 'unmentionable' in my opinion. We openly discuss many other things considered sins.

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Also, apparently the Church thinks the entire text of Miracle of Forgiveness is worth having on their website. Here's the clickable link.

http://www.lds.org/braille/The%20Miracle%20of%20Forgiveness.txt

Isn't that for a Braille version?

Can you find a link to if from somewhere else on the actual website of is that a file someone has uploaded to the server for some kind of review process?

It needs the logo usually to imply endorsement. No logo in a txt file :)

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Much as I admire President Kimball, it's not a book I recommend to people, including in my role as Stake Addiction Recovery Representative. I read it through about three years ago. I've since noticed that it is not on the recommended readings on the LDS combating Pornography site. And I'm certainly glad that no one offered a copy to Elizabeth Smart when she came home. When time permits, I may put together more specifics. In the meantime, the are some very good resources for repentence.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

MOF is taking a real beating on the thread (despite efforts to soften the blows). Interesting because the views Spencer W. Kimball articulated in that work are immediately recognizable to me--that's the church I grew up in. Can you imagine criticism like this (in any forum) by faithful LDS in, say, the early 1980's? But that old church doesn't appear to have many defenders left (certainly not much in evidence around here) while the thinking in SLC continues to evolve in another direction.

While I don't agree with any of Kimball's theology, I have to respect how he put it all out there. Can you imagine someone in LDS leadership today with the audacity to publicly label a centerpiece of Protestant theology, "fallacious doctrines originated by Satan?"

He was a small man in terms of stature (I got to see him once), but large in strength and conviction (however misguided). I'm sure you respect that, Kevin. Do you miss it too?

--Erik

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MOF is taking a real beating on the thread (despite efforts to soften the blows). Interesting because the views Spencer W. Kimball articulated in that work are immediately recognizable to me--that's the church I grew up in. Can you imagine criticism like this (in any forum) by faithful LDS in, say, the early 1980's? But that old church doesn't appear to have many defenders left (certainly not much in evidence around here) while the thinking in SLC continues to evolve in another direction.

While I don't agree with any of Kimball's theology, I have to respect how he put it all out there. Can you imagine someone in LDS leadership today with the audacity to publicly label a centerpiece of Protestant theology, "fallacious doctrines originated by Satan?"

He was a small man in terms of stature (I got to see him once), but large in strength and conviction (however misguided). I'm sure you respect that, Kevin. Do you miss it too?

--Erik

My husband is short also, I wish I could post the picture of he and Pres. Kimball standing together, both about the same height. My husband carried it in his scriptures so it got battered. If I were any kind of wife, I'd have gotten it framed. Just dawned on me, duh! My husband and his companion converted a Baptist Minister in Jackson, Mississippi. I guess it was such a big deal they were able to visit with Pres. & Sister Kimball, so there is also a picture with Camilla. I think I need to get my butt in gear and go have them better preserved.

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This is going to sound bad, but in regard for medicinal purposes, I think the "m" word has gotten a bad rap. I see it may be necessary for health. Also, it will curb someone from being promiscuous. Not speaking personally at all here. Are there specific scriptures that support our churches views on the matter? If there are, is it revealed from a heavenly source or man made?

There are no health benefits derived from masturbation.

Evidence, please, that it will "curb someone from being promiscuous." Consider that a CFR.

Maturbation is an act of lust, and we know what the Savior taught about that. I would consider His teachings a heavenly source.

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My husband is short also, I wish I could post the picture of he and Pres. Kimball standing together, both about the same height. My husband carried it in his scriptures so it got battered. If I were any kind of wife, I'd have gotten it framed. Just dawned on me, duh! My husband and his companion converted a Baptist Minister in Jackson, Mississippi. I guess it was such a big deal they were able to visit with Pres. & Sister Kimball, so there is also a picture with Camilla. I think I need to get my butt in gear and go have them better preserved.

Hi Tacenda...

I was just going to suggest that you take the pictures to a photo shop to send in for preservation... they can do wonders now... even some of the copy machines can make pretty good copies... at least he could carry a copy and you could put the original photo away for safekeeping...

GG

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I appreciate candid conversation and the forthright manner of condemning sin, but I also believe that when we talk of sin we also need to clearly identify the wondrous mercy and forgiveness of God. At times I have gotten the impression that some feel that the repentance process always demands a long, time-consuming period of kneeling on glass and self-flagellation. I believe that our Father in Heaven is quick to forgive the sinner that seeks forgiveness. The challenge is learning to forgive oneself. I would agree that some people need a longer period to decide if they want to follow Christ; that is a significant step for those who have committed grievous sins.

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There are no health benefits derived from masturbation.

Evidence, please, that it will "curb someone from being promiscuous." Consider that a CFR.

Maturbation is an act of lust, and we know what the Savior taught about that. I would consider His teachings a heavenly source.

I had read or heard awhile back that it was good medicinally could prevent prostate cancer. But now that I've been given a CFR, though not on the medicinal quote, I still checked that out. And it has two different answers, one that it can cause it and one that it can prevent it. So my bad, terrible bad.

But to the original CFR, I concede. It was a personal thought that occurred, but not pertaining to many LDS men. Being a married person, I know men have needs, but I shouldn't lump all men in that category.

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Mods... If the 'm' word is as bad as saying Voldemort in Harry Potter please let me know and I'll drop the conversation. I appreciate it remains a taboo. Just because we discourage it shouldn't make it an 'unmentionable' in my opinion. We openly discuss many other things considered sins.

They do tend to close threads about it because it starts getting too much about people's sexual behaviour and not about the doctrine surrounding it.
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I had read or heard awhile back that it was good medicinally could prevent prostate cancer. But now that I've been given a CFR, though not on the medicinal quote, I still checked that out. And it has two different answers, one that it can cause it and one that it can prevent it. So my bad, terrible bad.

But to the original CFR, I concede. It was a personal thought that occurred, but not pertaining to many LDS men. Being a married person, I know men have needs, but I shouldn't lump all men in that category.

Masturbation has no bearing whatsoever on prostate cancer.

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I had read or heard awhile back that it was good medicinally could prevent prostate cancer.

The idea is that it might be correlated, that those who have high hormone levels and apparently more prone to prostate cancer, may also be more prone to engage in masturbation. From what I've read there is nothing that can be concluded about direct cause in connection with cancer yet or any other health benefits.

OTOH, certain forms of masturbation can interfere with a healthy sexual relationship with one's partner, both because of a preference that cannot be satisfied by one's partner and because masturbation tends to involve stimulation that is not the same as when engaging in intercourse and can render the individual less sensitive to it. WebMD has an article on it I read recently.

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It's far more important what goes on between you ears than your legs.

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While not doctrine related. This is one of my all-time favorite slippery slope arguments. I didn't just come across this in Miracle of Forgiveness, I got taught this sequences of events multiple times by my Young Men's advisors. The jumps in this slippery slope are amazing.

Masturbation --> Mutual Masturbation w/same sex --> Total homosexuality.

All of us young men would laugh at this, knowing that we were all doing #1, and there wasn't a chance in outer darkness any of us had interest in #2, much less #3.

If that chain of events was accurate, our species would have ceased existing due to lack of procreation billions of years ago.

In a sense, the quote rings true.

For someone beset with homosexual tendencies and struggling to suppress or overcome them, indulging in the sin of masturbation could certainly make that struggle much more difficult, just as heterosexual men addicted to pornography often move beyond that to hiring prostitutes to feed their habit

The link seems self-evident to me.

Reading between the lines, it occurs to me that President Kimball in his ministry might have encountered that frequently among people he counseled, hence he saw the need to warn about it in his book.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Do you have any evidence that the number of people who masturbate and the number of people who have a same-sex attraction is remotely correlated?

I don't read Sevenbak as saying that.

He can clarify as he sees fit, but what I get from his post is that the frequency of homosexual behavior today is part-and-parcel of the sexual revolution resulting in casual acceptance of all manner of action that was formerly deemed unacceptable.

I can't give you statistics but it seems reasonable to me to believe that a person with homosexual tendencies would be more apt to act on them in this day and age than he would have been a couple of generations ago when President Kimball wrote the book.

This makes it more difficult to teach people, as our Church does, that there can be no righteous expression of homosexuality.

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So let's get off this so we can get back on subject please...I do not want this important issue to be sidetracked and then thrown away and passed off.

I would like to know more specifically, now that it has been pretty established that the church, does in fact with action, if not outright statements, condone "the Miracle of Forgiveness" as something to read in it's entire form. What other books are involved that hold the same value, but yet have some things that probably should not be there...

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I don't read Sevenbak as saying that.

He can clarify as he sees fit, but what I get from his post is that the frequency of homosexual behavior today is part-and-parcel of the sexual revolution resulting in casual acceptance of all manner of action that was formerly deemed unacceptable.

I can't give you statistics but it seems reasonable to me to believe that a person with homosexual tendencies would be more apt to act on them in this day and age than he would have been a couple of generations ago when President Kimball wrote the book.

This makes it more difficult to teach people, as our Church does, that there can be no righteous expression of homosexuality.

You've turned the issue into something it's not.

President Kimball makes the claim that M leads to MM which leads to H.

It's a formula that's lacking in logic or evidence.

Jim has asked for us to move back to the original topic, so I'll stop talking about it.

(Edited to correct surname, thanks Scott)

Edited by canard78
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So let's get off this so we can get back on subject please...I do not want this important issue to be sidetracked and then thrown away and passed off.

I would like to know more specifically, now that it has been pretty established that the church, does in fact with action, if not outright statements, condone "the Miracle of Forgiveness" as something to read in it's entire form. What other books are involved that hold the same value, but yet have some things that probably should not be there...

The fact there's a Braille text file on the LDS.org server does not mean the church endorses the book. The book has a disclaimer in the intro saying it's not endorsed.

Do you think the church endorses every personal story on Mormon.org? That even has the logo on the page somewhere.

The fact that sections are quoted in a church manual does not mean the entire book is endorsed.

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You've turned the issue into something it's not.

President Benson makes the claim that M leads to MM which leads to H.

It's a formula that's lacking in logic or evidence.

It wasn't President Benson, it was President Kimball. And contrary to your assertion about President Kimball's meaning, I don't read it that way. I have restated it as I perceive the meaning.

There's nothing in the quoted passage that could reasonably be interpreted as saying that masturbation leads inexorably and unavoidably to homosexuality. That would be absurd, and President Kimball was not stupid.

Jim has asked for us to move back to the original topic, so I'll stop talking about it.

I'm OK with that. But I didn't want to leave your comment unaddressed.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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It wasn't President Benson, it was President Kimball. And contrary to your assertion about President Kimball's meaning, I don't read it that way. I have restated it as I perceive the meaning.

Thanks, I'll correct it.

There's nothing in the quoted passage that could reasonably be interpreted as saying that masturbation leads inexorably and unavoidably to homosexuality. That would be absurd, and President Kimball was not stupid.

I'm OK with that. But I didn't want to leave your comment unaddressed.

No problem, I'll take your comments on board.

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I don't read Sevenbak as saying that.

He can clarify as he sees fit, but what I get from his post is that the frequency of homosexual behavior today is part-and-parcel of the sexual revolution resulting in casual acceptance of all manner of action that was formerly deemed unacceptable.

I can't give you statistics but it seems reasonable to me to believe that a person with homosexual tendencies would be more apt to act on them in this day and age than he would have been a couple of generations ago when President Kimball wrote the book.

This makes it more difficult to teach people, as our Church does, that there can be no righteous expression of homosexuality.

The percentage of homosexuals has remain relatively constant. What varies over time is the public acceptance of it.

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The percentage of homosexuals has remain relatively constant.

How can this be determined?
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