Jesus' Path To Divinity And Ours

[DonBradley]

Hi All,

Here's a question I saw posted on another site:

If Jesus is our perfect example, and Jesus progressed to godhood before he was born and before he had a physical body, then why doesn't Jesus serve as an example that we didn't need to experience mortal life or get a physical body to progress to godhood?

This strikes me as a good theological question. In the mid-19th century LDS leaders often, if not generally, spoke of the premortal Christ as if he were not yet fully divine. In the early 20th century, church leaders generally spoke of Christ as the God of the Old Testament (which was not a common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.) More recently the premortal Christ is spoken of as fully divine, as simply "God." This emphasis is framed in part as a response to evangelical Christian objections to Latter-day Saints describing the premortal Jesus as our Elder Brother.

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

Anyone else puzzled about this? Thoughts?

Don

[jwhitlock]

Perhaps the key is found in Matt 5:48, where Christ notes that His Father is perfect. When he then visits the Nephites, he modifies it to indicate that both He and His Father are perfect, or complete. Hence the necessity of obtaining a resurrected body in order to become complete.

The priesthood is the power and authority to act in the name of God the Father. Christ is the great High Priest by virtue of his priesthood position in the Godhead, so it is likely that He had reached a position in the pre-mortal existence where he could officiate in that office even though he was not yet complete. In other words, when we refer to Him as God, we do not refer to Him as being God-fully-exalted, but as holding the office to act in the stead of God in relation to us in mortality. Once of the principles of the gospel is participatory salvation, where God involves us as much as possible in the work of salvation, such as being Saviors on Mount Zion. While we are imperfect and yet can hold significant priesthood offices such as Apostle, One who is without sin can hold an office in the Godhead next to God the Father and function in HIs place as God, even though He is not yet fully exalted with a body. Once a person is exalted, then that person can eventually function as God within their own right.

Just some thoughts.

[Storm Rider]

Sometimes I think it is more an difference in emphasis than in actual doctrine. I think I always understood that Jesus was a member of the Godhead. Even Satan knew this which made him even more envious of Jesus' position and the love shared between the Godhead; it makes his play for glory all the more repugnant. Jehovah, at the direction of the Father, created all things; so this function of creation does not require a physical body. In addition, we have always understood that Jehovah also took a role in directing many others in the act of this creative process. In reality, I think this was an act of the Godhead, but included the participation of all of our Father's children, or a great many of them at the very least. The need for gaining an eternal, physical body through the resurrection was never been fully explained; albeit, many have offered differing degrees of speculation. It may be that many of these have a great deal of truth, but none of them is all encompassing or reflecting a complete understanding of physical body's requirement for Exaltation. What surprises me as much is the lack of any discussion by other Christian churches about why they need for the resurrection. This stunted pursuit prevents any real speculation on some of the deeper meanings of Theosis or Deification.

[tagriffy]

Then of course, there is the Holy Ghost, who is part of the Godhead without possessing a physical body.

[CV75]

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

I would say the premortal Christ was fully (sufficiently, expediently) divine for the Father’s purposes of saving mankind and for taking on the role of ensuring that His children (including Jesus Himself) get bodies so as to continue as living souls, both in mortality and immortality. In Jesus’ case, He would remain and continue as God, and in our case we could become gods. While we experieince these things in a linear or sequential fashion, we can also "[speak] of things to come as though they had already come."

Even though stages of His work and glory are reported in a progressive fashion and deemed "fulfilled" and "perfected," He is still God at any point.

Edited June 19, 2013 by CV75

[Duncan]

I say Big G and little g, there is God the Father who had progressed and Jesus the god and us who hadn't as yet done that thus far. Section 93 talks about this as well, how Jesus became divine and how we can as well

[Questing Beast]

Hi All,

... In the mid-19th century LDS leaders often, if not generally, spoke of the premortal Christ as if he were not yet fully divine. In the early 20th century, church leaders generally spoke of Christ as the God of the Old Testament (which was not a common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.) More recently the premortal Christ is spoken of as fully divine, as simply "God." This emphasis is framed in part as a response to evangelical Christian objections to Latter-day Saints describing the premortal Jesus as our Elder Brother.

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

Anyone else puzzled about this? Thoughts?

Don

I noticed this conflict many years ago. The resulting study has brought me to this conclusion: "God" manifested as Jesus Christ. That's what the BoM states clearly. It was JS's evolving theology which went far afield from the theology in the BoM. Christ Is the Word made flesh, not some separate entity. I got confused by the logic, e.g. "did Christ pray to himself?" In effect he did, but put himself into an exemplary position for our education. While manifesting as "the Son" in the flesh, "God" was always In Total and Infinite, and the Christ manifestation knew this and communed with himself In Total, while condescending to be mortal, i.e. temporarily cut off from himself In Total - just as we are, everyone of us, no exceptions. The difference between the Jesus Christ manifestation, and the rest of us, is a difference in degree. Jesus Christ was, apparently, the only One with full access to "God In Total", i.e. the mind of "God". Jesus Christ, then, as a mortal, possessed the mind, theoretically the whole mind, of God, while working out his own "salvation" or the atonement. We follow Jesus' example by praying to the "Father", trying to contact that Whole Mind, or God In Total. This perspective has led me to seek a concept for "God" that transcends JS's GtF concept, as given. I cannot pray to that kind of god, but must accept that even GtF prays to the "God" I seek....

Edited June 19, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Tacenda]

I noticed this conflict many years ago. The resulting study has brought me to this conclusion: "God" manifested as Jesus Christ. That's what the BoM states clearly. It was JS's evolving theology which went far afield from the theology in the BoM. Christ Is the Word made flesh, not some separate entity. I got confused by the logic, e.g. "did Christ pray to himself?" In effect he did, but put himself into an exemplary position for our education. While manifesting as "the Son" in the flesh, "God" was always In Total and Infinite, and the Christ manifestation knew this and communed with himself In Total, while condescending to be mortal, i.e. temporarily cut off from himself In Total - just as we are, everyone of us, no exceptions. The difference between the Jesus Christ manifestation, and the rest of us, is a difference in degree. Jesus Christ was, apparently, the only One with full access to "God In Total", i.e. the mind of "God". Jesus Christ, then, as a mortal, possessed the mind, theoretically the whole mind, of God, while working out his own "salvation" or the atonement. We follow Jesus' example by praying to the "Father", trying to contact that Whole Mind, or God In Total. This perspective has led me to seek a concept for "God" that transcends JS's GtF concept, as given. I cannot pray to that kind of god, but must accept that even GtF prays to the "God" I seek....

I also lean toward Jesus being God in the flesh. As the original manuscript of the BoM states or it alludes to. It had bothered me somewhat to how he prays to himself, I like how you made sense of it though. To me having God come down in the flesh makes him much bigger to me, all encompassing.

[Calm]

I also lean toward Jesus being God in the flesh. As the original manuscript of the BoM states or it alludes to. It had bothered me somewhat to how he prays to himself, I like how you made sense of it though. To me having God come down in the flesh makes him much bigger to me, all encompassing.

So you tend to believing that Jesus the Son of God is also God the Father in all ways, not in just assuming some of the roles the Father holds such as creator?

[Tacenda]

So you tend to believing that Jesus the Son of God is also God the Father in all ways, not in just assuming some of the roles the Father holds such as creator?

I believe he is creator, father & can be everywhere, so big we don't even come close to understanding him. This is my feeling at present, tomorrow I don't know, does anyone? I just like the thought of my being an angel and helping somehow, think "Touched By An Angel". The last thing I want is to be a goddess. And if our church is the truth, that means I'll live in another kingdom or possibly be a servant, that's going to have to be.

[Kenngo1969]

Then of course, there is the Holy Ghost, who is part of the Godhead without possessing a physical body.

I don't have a reference (maybe this is just folklore) but I've heard that the Holy Ghost will get a body during the millennium.

[Kenngo1969]

I believe he is creator, father & can be everywhere, so big we don't even come close to understanding him. This is my feeling at present, tomorrow I don't know, does anyone? I just like the thought of my being an angel and helping somehow, think "Touched By An Angel". The last thing I want is to be a goddess. And if our church is the truth, that means I'll live in another kingdom or possibly be a servant, that's going to have to be.

While I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with thinking ahead about most things, I have enough to worry about in the here-and-now without being unduly concerned about the ultimate fate of my immortal soul. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, and I think most of my fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ take a similar approach. Sure, the Church's antagonists spend ink, breath, and bandwidth talking about what Mormons really believe will happen in the hereafter, but it's been my experience that they are more worried about that than we've ever been.

[Kenngo1969]

Perhaps the key is found in Matt 5:48, where Christ notes that His Father is perfect. When he then visits the Nephites, he modifies it to indicate that both He and His Father are perfect, or complete. Hence the necessity of obtaining a resurrected body in order to become complete. ...

Ding, ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding! Tell him what he's won, Bob! My thoughts exactly!

[theplains]

In the mid-19th century LDS leaders often, if not generally, spoke of the premortal Christ as if he were not yet fully divine.

Really?

Even the Book of Mormon says that it was God (not some less than fully divine person) who

would come down to earth (Mosiah 3:5).

[in the early 20th century, church leaders generally spoke of Christ as the God of the Old Testament

(which was not a common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.)

The Book of Mormon refers to Jesus as being the God of the whole earth (3 Nephi 11:14). I

would think this makes it common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

According to the church's manual, "By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that

pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God". It seems this is more important than

having a body. Not sure about the Holy Ghost either. He is also taught to be a God but it is

not mentioned how he became exalted without a body either. Maybe his intelligence too?

Thanks,

Jim

[tagriffy]

I don't have a reference (maybe this is just folklore) but I've heard that the Holy Ghost will get a body during the millennium.

I've heard that too. I don't think it is "official" doctrine, but it is more or less something that follows given what we do have. I pointed out the Holy Ghost's lack of a physical body because it seems to have some relevancy to Don's question. That may well be the key to resolving it.

[Ahab]

If Jesus is our perfect example, and Jesus progressed to godhood before he was born and before he had a physical body, then why doesn't Jesus serve as an example that we didn't need to experience mortal life or get a physical body to progress to godhood?

It does. We're "God" by being the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, which all of us are, as his children.

What we aren't yet is as perfect as our Father in heaven, and Jesus is our perfect example for how to do that. We need to obey our Father to be like him and for those of us who sin we need to repent from those sins so that when the atonement of Jesus Christ cleanses us from those sins we will be as perfect as they are because those sins will not be held against us and we will have repented so that we will not be committing the same sins anymore.

Perfection is all about being like our Father in heaven and without any sin. We're already the same kind of being he is.

[cjp]

I've always thought that Alma 7:12-13 highlights the confusing nature of whether Christ needed to come to earth to learn anything or not. It seems to me that verse 12 is suggesting that he had to suffer in the flesh to learn compassion and empathy and how to succor those in the flesh. But the next verse seems to possibly contradict this and imply that he only came for our sake. I'm not sure exactly what it means when it says the Spirit that knoweth all things and if that is qualifying the previous sentence. 

 12 And he will take upon him ^adeath, that he may ^bloose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to ^csuccorhis people according to their infirmities.

 13 Now the Spirit ^aknoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the ^bflesh that he might ^ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

[strappinglad]

Abraham 3 : 3 talks about the hierarchy of intelligences. If we assume that spiritual intelligence is arrangable on a bell curve like many human attributes are , and we interpret the statement that Christ is at the top end of the curve, then there were quite a few intelligences close behind Him in the progress toward complete godhood. On the other hand , if we interpret Christ as an intelligence so great as to be greater than the sum total of all other intelligences combined , then we are many orders of magnitude behind Him in our progression. Personally , I lean toward the first interpretation, but concede strong evidence for the second.

[BCSpace]

If Jesus is our perfect example, and Jesus progressed to godhood before he was born and before he had a physical body, then why doesn't Jesus serve as an example that we didn't need to experience mortal life or get a physical body to progress to godhood?

 

I like to answer this question with Abraham 3:16-19.  Jesus was the greatest of all the intelligences before we were born and therefore a God relative to us even before he obtained his physical body.  Now that he has overcome the world, he sits down with the Father in his throne just as we will as well (Revelation 3:21).

[changed]

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine?

(Book of Mormon | Alma 40

all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

(Old Testament | Malachi 3:6)

 For I am the LORD, I change not...

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:18)

For he is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever

I think we are trapped in this thing called time, but that beyond the veil there is no before/after, cause/effect, there is just what is.  Time perhaps shows us different sides of an eternally existing shape - I'm a determinist, not quite a calvanist though as I believe in self-determinism (ie, the past/preset/future are set in stone by ourselves) We discover who we are through time, but the core of who we are does not change.  The plan is necessary for us to see ourselves, but it does not really change who we are.... and Jesus was always Jesus etc.

I still can't decide if this philosphy of timeless self-deterministic unchanging philophy is something to bring peace or not... there's only peace in it if everyone at their core ends up discovering that they were good all along.

 

Edited November 22, 2013 by changed

[teddyaware]

Hi All,

Here's a question I saw posted on another site:

This strikes me as a good theological question. In the mid-19th century LDS leaders often, if not generally, spoke of the premortal Christ as if he were not yet fully divine. In the early 20th century, church leaders generally spoke of Christ as the God of the Old Testament (which was not a common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.) More recently the premortal Christ is spoken of as fully divine, as simply "God." This emphasis is framed in part as a response to evangelical Christian objections to Latter-day Saints describing the premortal Jesus as our Elder Brother.

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

Anyone else puzzled about this? Thoughts?

Don

I'm not at all perplexed by this. When the divine spirit known as Christ took upon Himself an earthly body, a veil of forgetfulness was placed over his mind that obscured an awareness within Himself of His pre-mortal life and Godhood. In this "earthy" condition, His glorious pre-earth life was slowly unfolded to His consciousness, just like it is for the rest of us. I believe when the full story of His life on earth is revealed, we'll learn his experience was much more like ours than many of us are prepared to believe.

Off to work. I'll elaborate further when I have time.

Edited November 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[Senator]

The conflict is an effect of the dimensional captivity of our minds. Once in an eternal dimension, where light, time and chronology bend, it won't be a conflict at all.

[teddyaware]

Hi All,

Here's a question I saw posted on another site:

This strikes me as a good theological question. In the mid-19th century LDS leaders often, if not generally, spoke of the premortal Christ as if he were not yet fully divine. In the early 20th century, church leaders generally spoke of Christ as the God of the Old Testament (which was not a common LDS teaching through most of the 19th century.) More recently the premortal Christ is spoken of as fully divine, as simply "God." This emphasis is framed in part as a response to evangelical Christian objections to Latter-day Saints describing the premortal Jesus as our Elder Brother.

But if, as the question above asks, the premortal Christ was fully divine--was God, then what of the plan under which embodiment is prerequisite to becoming divine? I don't see how these two fit together. And I even wonder if they can.

Anyone else puzzled about this? Thoughts?

Don

For God to have only a dispassionate, theoretical knowledge of the truth is insufficient in order for Him to reign as a revered and honored King. There must be an intimate experiential knowledge, derived from real-life firsthand experience, in order for God to rule and reign in true power, might and majesty.

In order for the children of God to be willing to unreservedly keep the commandments of God, Christ must first prove beyond all doubt He is willing, even though placed in a state of weakness and dependency on His Father, to dive headlong into combat against the forces of darkness and hate; and this in order to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of all, He is willing to walk the walk and not just detachedly talk the talk while comfortably ensconced and in a celestial ivory tower of mere thoughts and ideas.

For Christ to take upon Himself the role of exemplar, He must first be the greatest of conquerors in His own right, proving by His own heroic actions that He is willing and able to overcome the flesh, sin, death and the devil, even though placed in weakened and vulnerable condition of real peccablity. Christ's own personal struggles against the forces of darkness must of necessity be even more difficult, challenging, perilous and dangerous than any of our own struggles against the same, and this to prove that faith, hope and charity really can overcome all things.

To come full circle, in the eternal scheme of things, it's not good enough for God to live in a world of abstract notions and ideas. He must prove beyond all doubt that the forces that stand in everlasting opposition to all that is good can be overcome and subordinated. He must know the truth of all things, not only in the abstract, as thoughts and ideas, but also know all things experientially.

The scriptures teach us that without Christ knowing all things, by most intimate personal experience, it wouldn't be possible for His Spirit to dwell within all things (in other words, nothing and no one could be saved). The atonement of Christ was not just an experience in suffering, it was the greatest of all His learning experiences.

"6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that (i.e. in the atoning sacrifice) he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;" (D&C 88)

Edited November 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

Then of course, there is the Holy Ghost, who is part of the Godhead without possessing a physical body.

Yes, the Member of the Godhead whom we rely on throughout our daily walk, and of Whom we know virtually nothing.

[Palerider]

I believe in some respects "teddyaware" is correct. But I'd like to back up just a little first.

 

I've often been puzzled about the phrase in the U.S. founding documents, "In order to form a MORE PERFECT union."  How does one go from perfection to "more perfect"? 

 

IF the early LDS church leadership saw Christ (at any point in His existence) as anything less than utterly divine they would have been sadly mistaken as John 1: 1-3 attests. 

 

Instead of seeing Him on a path to divinity, we should see Him as growing in glory and perfection. 

 

And the way he chose to do that (and this is critical to understand) was out of His love for us. So he chose to be made like unto us in order to accomplish that work of love and, regarding His Father, to fulfill all righteousness in the process. See Hebrews 2: 14-18 

 

So the receiving of a physical body rather than being mandatory to becoming exalted; it is through the EXPERIENCES of having a physical body and His unrelenting obedience to the Father, that he is able to be perfected and glorified even beyond his already holy station and so effect the salvation of mankind, with a complete understanding of our plight.   See Hebrews 5: 8-9

Edited November 25, 2013 by Palerider