Back To The Garden: Eden In Mormonism

[Closet Doubter]

This thread has been quite entertaining. I feel like I'm listening to a bunch of 2^nd graders trying to put sense into how Santa Claus can deliver presents to all kids in one night or how the Easter Bunny lays eggs. What amuses me even more is remembering that while studying for my engineering degree I actually believed a lot of the things that you guys are discussing here. There is a postulate that when many ideas are being thrown around to explain something, that the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate. Here is the simplest – Genesis consists of mythology that was believed at the time of Moses that he put in writing and after many generations and iterations is believed as fact. We have all the different interpretations of the mythology because a lot of good and otherwise rational and intelligent people try and make sense of the mythology in a form they can believe.

Here is an easy solution to learn the truth. Lets make a list of the conflicting teachings related to the creation, death before the fall, the Garden of Eden, etc from the scriptures, writings of prophets and apostles, and currently accepted science, then lets find a church that is led by Prophets and Apostles and ask them clarify the issues so that we are no longer “forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.

[ERayR]

Science is essentially Agnostic when it comes to religion. Science by definition can't confirm or deny any God or Godlike force.

In principle but not in practice.

[Ahab]

... lets find a church that is led by Prophets and Apostles and ask them to clarify the issues so that we are no longer “forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.

No need to ask them because they've already told us. What we need to do now is ask God if what they say is true, and trust him.

[CV75]

We have all the different interpretations

And what is wrong with that, as long as we enter into and keep the same covenants, verifiable by the Holy Spirit?

[theplains]

Here is an easy solution to learn the truth. Lets make a list of the conflicting teachings related to the creation, death before the fall, the Garden of Eden, etc from the scriptures, writings of prophets and apostles, and currently accepted science, then lets find a church that is led by Prophets and Apostles and ask them clarify the issues so that we are no longer “forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”.

Former President Kimball taught that Eve was not literally created from Adam's rib. He

said, "the story of the rib, of course, is figurative" ("The Blessings and the Responsibilities

of Womanhood", Ensign, March 1976, p. 71).

I wonder if he believed Adam being formed from the dust of the ground was also figurative.

Thanks,

Jim

[ERayR]

I wonder if he believed Adam being formed from the dust of the ground was also figurative.

Thanks,

Jim

Why would you call it figurative? We are all formed of the dust of the earth.

[Closet Doubter]

No need to ask them because they've already told us. What we need to do now is ask God if what they say is true, and trust him.

Which ones do I beleive? David McKay who said that evolution is a beautiful concept as long as the hand of the lord is recognized in it, or Joseph Fielding Smith who stated that there was no death at all before the fall and that we know by revelation that the earth is only 13,000 years old. If I ask God, he won't tell me that both are true unless he is a God of confusion which I don't beleive for a second.

[Ahab]

Which ones do I beleive? David McKay who said that evolution is a beautiful concept as long as the hand of the lord is recognized in it, or Joseph Fielding Smith who stated that there was no death at all before the fall and that we know by revelation that the earth is only 13,000 years old. If I ask God, he won't tell me that both are true unless he is a God of confusion which I don't beleive for a second.

You can test anything anyone says by asking God if what they are saying is true. God isn't the cause of confusion. God is who we can turn to to clear it all up.

[cinepro]

Which ones do I beleive? David McKay who said that evolution is a beautiful concept as long as the hand of the lord is recognized in it, or Joseph Fielding Smith who stated that there was no death at all before the fall and that we know by revelation that the earth is only 13,000 years old. If I ask God, he won't tell me that both are true unless he is a God of confusion which I don't beleive for a second.

Is that McKay quote reproduced in current Church publications? Because you have to remember...

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the

Holy Bible , the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted

Edited June 19, 2013 by cinepro

[Stone holm]

Is that McKay quote reproduced in current Church publications? Because you have to remember...

Why would we take evolution out of God's toolkit?

[ERayR]

Why would we take evolution out of God's toolkit?

Why would he need it?

[Calm]

I've tried to ascend into heaven before.

Isn't that what got those from the Great Tower in trouble?

[ERayR]

Isn't that what got those from the Great Tower in trouble?

As long as we do it correctly that is what we all should be doing. What got those at the great tower in trouble is they tried to bypass the proper channels.

[Calm]

As long as we do it correctly that is what we all should be doing. What got those at the great tower in trouble is they tried to bypass the proper channels.

Indeed.

However, the phrasing of "I've tried to..." rather than "I've appealed to the Lord to bring me to..." seems to do just that...so perhaps it could be better put.

Edited June 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Questing Beast]

Genesis: oral tradition drawn from "Israel" surrounded by non Israelites and their religious cultures. "Genesis" was only written down in the seventh century BCE, obviously not by Moses. "Jehovah" and "Elohim" are turning up as non Israelite IDs for "God", inculcated by Israel. So, Genesis, creation myths with an Israelite bent to them. Early ancestors "in good with God", Abraham and those that followed; but the Arabs say Ishmael is the "birthright blessing" son, while Israelites say no, it was Isaac, Ishmael and his mother were cast out of the family by the head wife. Two versions of probably several/many variants of the same story, all of it on the cusp of recorded "history", preceded by bona fide mythology; nobody knows anything more about it. One man's revelation is another man's deception. I choose to accept Genesis as myth, it fits the evidence best that way. Star Trek's the OS episode about "Eden" is as likely as the versions which place "Eden" somewhere on this planet....

Edited June 20, 2013 by Questing Beast

[thesometimesaint]

Why would you call it figurative? We are all formed of the dust of the earth.

We're actually closer to ancient sea water.

[thesometimesaint]

Why would he need it?

Why wouldn't he?

[Ahab]

Isn't that what got those from the Great Tower in trouble?

Hmmm. Maybe THAT's why some people sometimes don't understand what I am saying.

[Ahab]

Why wouldn't he?

If all kinds of life are eternal he wouldn't need to start from scratch on every planet he has created. He'd just take some of the creatures from a planet where there already are some and put them onto other planets, perpetuating his own species by putting some of his own children on it. You do realize there are already some other planets with the same kinds of life we have on this planet, don't you? This isn't the first planet our Father created and it's not going to be his last, either. Catch the vision! Some of you scientists are way behind on the facts still looking for things we already know are out there according to what our Father has told us.

[thesometimesaint]

If all kinds of life are eternal he wouldn't need to start from scratch on every planet he has created. He'd just take some of the creatures from a planet where there already are some and put them onto other planets, perpetuating his own species by putting some of his own children on it. You do realize there are already some other planets with the same kinds of life we have on this planet, don't you? This isn't the first planet our Father created and it's not going to be his last, either. Catch the vision! Some of you scientists are way behind on the facts still looking for things we already know are out there according to what our Father has told us.

The whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened. It's entirely possible that creation occurred 14,000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point?

[Ahab]

Indeed.

However, the phrasing of "I've tried to..." rather than "I've appealed to the Lord to bring me to..." seems to do just that...so perhaps it could be better put.

I've tried to in various ways and at various times, always hoping and praying the Lord would help to bring me to where he is, and if you think you have any better ideas for how to get there I'm open to hearing them. At this point I'm thinking it's just not my time yet, but maybe I still need to do something I haven't done yet. Anyway, I'm going to keep trying. I don't think he's going to help me make it unless I do what I can to get there.

[thesometimesaint]

That depends on how you define science, I think. The scientific method can be used to learn about anything, including God.

Sorry no it can't. Science by definition can not posit any God or Godlike force.

[Stone holm]

Sorry no it can't. Science by definition can not posit any God or Godlike force.

You want to clarify what you mean by this?

[thesometimesaint]

You want to clarify what you mean by this?

I don't know how much clearer t can get. The nanosecond any God or Godlike force is posited it is no longer science.

[Ahab]

I don't know how much clearer t can get. The nanosecond any God or Godlike force is posited it is no longer science.

That's a bad idea of what science is.