46 replies to this topic

[calmoriah]

bcuzbcuz, on 18 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Is forgiveness given when the perpetrator sees nothing wrong in their actions, even thinking they did a good job?

Quote

D&C 64:8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for thisevil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

[USU78]

bcuzbcuz, on 18 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Forgiveness is given, when it is asked for, if the person asking is willing to acknowledge their actions and willing to offer retribution. Isn't that how it works?

Is forgiveness given when the perpetrator sees nothing wrong in their actions, even thinking they did a good job?

Yes, as an adult, you move on. But it is foolish to forget, even foolish to let bygones be bygones until working to right the wrongs is done.

Forgiveness is given.  Period.  Your view is a particularly nasty one . . . reminds me of the curser in Drag Me to Hell, who, even from beyond the grave, keeps torturing the low-level bank employee who was the messenger reporting that the foreclosure sale would go on to its sad conclusion.

[EllenMaksoud]

USU78, on 13 June 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

In another thread, there is considerable (over 7 pages now) of discussion on a website that purports to prepare missionary candidates for their missions and to be a resource on dealing with sometimes difficult questions from investigators.  In the course of the conversation, certain statements about sometimes arbitrary sometimes silly mission rules has gotten a fair bit of bandwidth.

I would like in this thread to make a serious point:  mission presidents are not the prophet.  They are also not infallible.  They sometimes mess up, big time, but we should be mature enough to forgive their questing towards doing the right when it leads them to places other than Shangri-La.  We should also be humble enough to recognize that maybe we cannot see what problem was being addressed with an inexplicable mission rule such that the rule appeared to be (or maybe was) the best way to address it.

Now, that said, I wanted to share a couple of things, one from my own mission (Austria '73-75) and a nephew of mine, now 41, who was in the Wazzu Mission in Eastern Washington back when he was 19-21.

My mission president gave an address at a mission conference in which he accused the missionaries of taking advantage of their parents by wasting their hard-earned money on frivolities, and calling on all of us to tighten our belts, avoid extravagance and live on less.  I had been living on $130 a month from my folks up till that point, and I immediately wrote my parents to send me only $100, notwithstanding I didn't see how I could pay the bills.  This was how I spent the last 9 months of my mission.  I went from 185 lbs (at 6'1/2") to 150 (if that) over those months living on oatmeal and not much else (very few dinner invites in those days).  I was also very sick and weak and not very up to working, though I gave it my best shot in a mission where nobody baptized much.  As a result, I became somewhat disaffected from the Church because of this enforced starvation (as a missionary could only view the imposition by authority) by a dragnet, global criticism by an incautious Church authority.  I became indifferent but not entirely inactive and stayed that way for almost 10 years.

My nephew brought a bicycle with him to his mission.  A good one.  He was instructed after he got there that he would have to turn that bicycle in to the mission, and buy a standard mission bicycle, and he would be reimbursed the whole price of his bike as long as it was turned back in in good condition.  Then the mission president spent the money on something else . . . no reimbursement and no, you may not take the bicycle back home with you to Utah.  This caused so many hard feelings that many of the missionaries left the church, including my nephew, who will likely never return.

Now . . . should I have been more adult and forgiving?  Yes.  My nephew?  Same thing . . . get over yourself, you're in your '40s now.  Should these two presidents have made different calls?  Seems pretty clear they should have.

But why should we be upset or become disaffected when they prove what we already knew?  That they are humans, and humans screw up?

While I love the church, I feel there is a huge disconnect between the doctrine taught by missionaries, and that of the GA. Admittedly, this is colored by the fact that I do not trust men easily. With the Atonement, there is a curious double talk practiced in the church, and I feel "lied to".  I say this not as a traitor to the church, but as a daughter speaking respectfully to her new  "father", because in many ways there has been so much healing.

I have a past, part of which  I am ashamed of; felt repentant of; was contrite for; and was led to believe that with all that, if I accepted it, could have the full benefits of the Atonement. I excercised all the repentance posible, though some things can not be undone.  With great emotion, astonishment, and thankfulness, I took the vows, made the commitments, purposed in my heart to obey and lived a life of obedience. Yet, still, in my most unguarded moments, people in authority choose to bring it up and before my face. This hurts a lot and after a while you'd think I would just toughen up, but it actually weakens, and disillusions me.  It is sad to feel like being inactive after only 28 months.

Edited by EllenMaksoud, Today, 10:38 AM.

[Ahab]

EllenMaksoud, on 19 June 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

While I love the church, I feel there is a huge disconnect between the doctrine taught by missionaries, and that of the GA. Admittedly, this is colored by the fact that I do not trust men easily. With the Atonement, there is a curious double talk practiced in the church, and I feel "lied to".  I say this not as a traitor to the church, but as a daughter speaking respectfully to her new  "father", because in many ways there has been so much healing.

I have a past, part of which  I am ashamed of; felt repentant of; was contrite for; and was led to believe that with all that, if I accepted it, could have the full benefits of the Atonement. I excercised all the repentance posible, though some things can not be undone.  With great emotion, astonishment, and thankfulness, I took the vows, made the commitments, purposed in my heart to obey and lived a life of obedience. Yet, still, in my most unguarded moments, people in authority choose to bring it up and before my face. This hurts a lot and after a while you'd think I would just toughen up, but it actually weakens, and disillusions me.  It is sad to feel like being inactive after only 28 months.

Talk to them one on one and let them know it bothers you.  And ask them to stop bringing it up, or to at least explain why they do.  Don't just curl up in a ball and melt away.  Stand up to them.  Be confident, but humble, knowing you're doing the best you can do to follow God now while trusting that he has already forgiven you.

Mortals can be such idiots, including some mortals who are in leadership positions in the Church, so they sometimes need someone to help them to see their mistakes and how they can improve.

[Duncan]

EllenMaksoud, on 19 June 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

While I love the church, I feel there is a huge disconnect between the doctrine taught by missionaries, and that of the GA. Admittedly, this is colored by the fact that I do not trust men easily. With the Atonement, there is a curious double talk practiced in the church, and I feel "lied to".  I say this not as a traitor to the church, but as a daughter speaking respectfully to her new  "father", because in many ways there has been so much healing.

I have a past, part of which  I am ashamed of; felt repentant of; was contrite for; and was led to believe that with all that, if I accepted it, could have the full benefits of the Atonement. I excercised all the repentance posible, though some things can not be undone.  With great emotion, astonishment, and thankfulness, I took the vows, made the commitments, purposed in my heart to obey and lived a life of obedience. Yet, still, in my most unguarded moments, people in authority choose to bring it up and before my face. This hurts a lot and after a while you'd think I would just toughen up, but it actually weakens, and disillusions me.  It is sad to feel like being inactive after only 28 months.

a few weeks ago I emailed my Bishop about a situation that only he needs to know about and I shared some personal info (nothing sinful!) but much to my surprise he read the email in ward council mtg, without my being there or permission. Now, I either give brief tidbits or never talk to him

[EllenMaksoud]

Duncan, on 19 June 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

a few weeks ago I emailed my Bishop about a situation that only he needs to know about and I shared some personal info (nothing sinful!) but much to my surprise he read the email in ward council mtg, without my being there or permission. Now, I either give brief tidbits or never talk to him

I have told the whole church that I am sick of people talking about me without my being there, and it was with considerable heat!  Hyeah, like that helped.   I think it is just institutionalized gossip.

[Ahab]

EllenMaksoud, on 19 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I have told the whole church that I am sick of people talking about me without my being there, and it was with considerable heat!  Hyeah, like that helped.   I think it is just institutionalized gossip.

You can't control what other people say about you, or to you... heck, you can't control other people in any way whatsoever.

You can push their buttons, though, sometimes, if you have a mind to.  I can disregard it when other people push mine.