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DonBradley

The Latest Anti-Mormon Deception: "Futuremissionary.Com"

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How widespread is that in Brazil?

I served in the Manaus mission which is probably the largest mission in Brazil. I served in two states in that mission. Dinner just wasn't something you did.

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By the way, this website was discussed earlier here at http://www.mormondia...ure missionary

This post stating the comments were removed when corrections were offered concerns me:

Perhaps cdowis can go back and reread the site and see if any of his corrections were incorporated or not.

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I served in the Manaus mission which is probably the largest mission in Brazil. I served in two states in that mission. Dinner just wasn't something you did.

I had a roomate that went there.

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If you read through my posts in this thread, you'll see that I haven't attempted to 'defend' my content. On the contrary I have already started to change parts of my content based on suggestions in this thread, including info about Joseph's anti-slavery platform. I'm always open to new information as it comes.

Why do you post the following quote from Orson Pratt's The Seer, a periodical that was disavowed by the Church?

…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people.

From Wikipedia:

"The Seer [and other writings by Pratt] contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."[4]

[4] Deseret News, Aug. 23, 1865, 373; see also B.H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2:294 (1912).

What point are you trying to make by posting the following quote and how is it relevant to prospective missionaries?

Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average.

What point are you trying to make with this Boyd K. Packer quote and how is it helpful in mission preparation?

The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.

Consider this statement:

What was the peep or seer stone?

Before Joseph had been visited by Moroni or seen the Urum and Thumum, he discovered a seer stone in a well. Though he originally used it to find buried treasure, he also translated most of the Book of Mormon.

Were you aware that the term "Urim and Thummim" applied to the seer stone as well as the Nephite interpreters? It's in the January 2013 Ensign.

"He described the instrument as “spectacles” and referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim (see Exodus 28:30).

He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed, called “seer stones” because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer. "

"Great and Marvelous Are the Revelations of God," BY GERRIT DIRKMAAT, Church History Department

http://www.lds.org/e...of-god?lang=eng

Or you could read this:

The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation

http://www.mormonint...on-translation/

So, regarding polygamy, the Church doesn't teach this as doctrine, but you consider the following info necessary for prospective missionaries...why? Can you provide a quote from Joseph Smith which states that you need "to be a polygamist in order to reach heaven?" Why would you want a missionary to teach this to an investigator?

Though the church no longer teaches this as doctrine, prophets from Joseph Smith to Joseph F. Smith preached that you need to be a polygamist in order to reach the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom.

Who is it that "suspects he has up to 60?" Who are you quoting as your source?

LDS researchers have verified that he had at least 33 wives, but it’s suspected that he had up to 60.

Can you provide support for this assertion?

Heber C. Kimball, Brigham Young, and other prominent LDS leaders shared their wives with other men.

Why are you even bringing up "Is interracial marriage a sin?" Who is using the Book of Mormon to support these views? How do the views of Church leaders in the 1950's apply to missionary preparation? (You don't suppose there were any other similar views shared in the 1950's...right?) Many speculate that "this law" no longer applies? Who is speculating?

Quotes from both the Book of Mormon and the Bible are often used to support these views.

Though Church leaders were very clear about the evils of interracial marriage, even passing laws to prevent it, there has been no official mention of it since the 1950′s. Even interracial temple marriages are now performed. Many speculate that this law no longer applies now that black people can hold the priesthood.

You know, dropping these quotes and then acting like you are blissfully unaware that anyone would have a problem with them is beyond naive, which is why I believe that you know exactly what you are doing. Your site is full of controversial "sound bites" that lack context.

WW

Edited by Wiki Wonka

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You know, dropping these quotes and then acting like you are blissfully unaware that anyone would have a problem with them is beyond naive, which is why I believe that you know exactly what you are doing. Your site is full of controversial "sound bites" that lack context.

WW

And apparently has been for quite sometime as you presented some pretty good analysis last time this site came up on the board in February.

I just don't follow how someone could find some of these obscure claims through research and yet miss out of other more positive facts (such as JS having a free the slave platform). At the very least that demonstrates what type of site he favours for his research and an inclination not to check on sources with other sites such as FAIR which he could easily use to inform his own writings even if we are 'too wordy' to send teens too (and considering how we have had teens working with FAIR in the past, I think assuming that all teens wants 'easy' is very unfortunately, I love that FAIR tries to offer both the simplified version and then the more detailed in support of its claims...reorganizing to place the summary first, rather than last meets the needs of both type of individuals, the ones that wants soundbites and the one that wants details...and hopefully those in between).

Edited by calmoriah

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In my mission, dinner appointments were discouraged (dinner takes a long time in Italy)

Cooking our own food was the norm. One of my favorite ways of meeting people was to ask for recipes in the market.

I was able to practice the recipes in the apartment and by the time I was done with my mission, I was a pretty good Italian cook.

That sounds like fun. My brother served in Italy, too ... (As a missionary, it isn't a country for the faint-of-heart! ;))

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You ate food? I thought we were supposed to live off the dew of the universe when we didn't have investigators.

We had Manna from Heaven in my mission, so ... neener-neener! :P;):D:rofl:

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I served in Brazil. I never ate dinner. It wasn't because of any "No investigators, No Dinner", it was because dinner didn't exist (at least in my area of Brazil). You ate a quick breakfast, a massive lunch, tried to stay awake with a full stomach and a hot day, and then went home, had a small drink/meal (I guess you could call that dinner) and went to sleep. The idea of having an hour or two set aside for dinner is foreign to me.

How widespread is that in Brazil?

It is very widespread in Brazil and not just among missionaries. Brazilians tend to eat a very small breakfast (coffee, bread, cheese), an enormous lunch (heaping plates of rice and beans), and a very small dinner (coffee, bread, cheese, leftover rice and beans).

Futuremissionary if you read this post I think you need to give a little more context about your statement that you are not allowed to eat dinner unless you have an investigator present.

For those who would like a little more context here it is:

In Brazil in all of the wards that I am aware of the missionaries eat lunch everyday with a member of the ward in which they are serving. This would be the equivalent of the dinner appointments with the members that are very common in the US. Some missionaries also began scheduling regular dinner appointments with the members in addition to their daily lunch appointments. Once again for comparison this would be the equivalent of missionaries in the US scheduling lunch and dinner appointments each day with the members. This was discouraged for a number of reasons, but the dinner appointments with the members could continue if an investigator was present. There was and is no rule in any mission in Brazil that prohibited missionaries from eating dinner on their own.

There are however cultural reasons why dinner is not regularly eaten as mentioned above. This culture naturally affects the habits of the missionaries and I do not doubt that there was and is a tradition of not eating a formal dinner amongst the missionaries, but I flat out deny that there was ever a rule that prohibited them from eating on their own.

Futuremissionary I believe you may have mistaken a cultural habit in your mission for a hard and fast rule, that in fact never existed.

-guerreiro9

Edited by guerreiro9

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Judasfreakingpriest Pa Pa, are you awake when you write?...

Wishing there were a dislike button.

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Wishing there were a dislike button.

Sometimes the report function is not enough...

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I just don't follow how someone could find some of these obscure claims through research and yet miss out of other more positive facts (such as JS having a free the slave platform). At the very least that demonstrates what type of site he favours for his research and an inclination not to check on sources with other sites such as FAIR

I have a strange feeling that futuremissionary knows exactly what he is doing with his site. I think that he may be just a little bothered with the church and he has become influenced by MT and other such sights. So, he wishes to set the record straight with future missionaries. However, he may be just naive and actually believes that he is helping future missionaries to become better missionaries.

Edited by why me

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volgadon is another I would recommend

I just got accused of being an anti-Mormon troll on a facebook group a couple of days ago... =)

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FM,

It's good to have direct contact with you.

I never said you wouldn't do what you can to not be seen as anti. I just said that you were anti, and trying not to seem it. See the difference? ;-)

The site seems to try to add just a little bit of LDS-like content, to make the Trojan horse strategy complete. But I'm sorry, it isn't unclear to me what you're up to.

Rather than defend what you're doing, why don't you change it? Create an honestly, forthrightly critical site designed to give "the other side."

Deception is still deception, even if you see it being for a good cause.

If LDS kids want to seek out the data that anti-Mormons want to give them, that should be up to them. The decision shouldn't be made for them, through trickery, by you.

That's all I'm saying.

Don

Opening a copy of Bartlett's, we find that John Wycliffe is supposed to have said to the Duke of Lancaster. "I believe that in the end the truth will conquer."

I join you in calling for futuremissionary.com to come out in the open with its criticisms.

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Judasfreakingpriest Pa Pa, are you awake when you write?...

You know, I edited copy for about four years in high school and college. Would you like me to critique all of your posts for grammar, punctuation, style, spelling, and so on? In doing so, would you like me to extend to you as much charity as you've extended to Pa Pa? (I doubt you'd enjoy the experience.) I'm not sure about the "Questing" part, but you're right: "Beast" is right on the money ...

QB has been removed from the thread. Everybody get back on topic.

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Since when was being awake such a great quality for writers?

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Since when was being awake such a great quality for writers?

Well, only in order to write it down. =)

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In Brazil in all of the wards that I am aware of the missionaries eat lunch everyday with a member of the ward in which they are serving. This would be the equivalent of the dinner appointments with the members that are very common in the US. Some missionaries also began scheduling regular dinner appointments with the members in addition to their daily lunch appointments. Once again for comparison this would be the equivalent of missionaries in the US scheduling lunch and dinner appointments each day with the members. This was discouraged for a number of reasons, but the dinner appointments with the members could continue if an investigator was present. There was and is no rule in any mission in Brazil that prohibited missionaries from eating dinner on their own.

There are however cultural reasons why dinner is not regularly eaten as mentioned above. This culture naturally affects the habits of the missionaries and I do not doubt that there was and is a tradition of not eating a formal dinner amongst the missionaries, but I flat out deny that there was ever a rule that prohibited them from eating on their own.

Futuremissionary I believe you may have mistaken a cultural habit in your mission for a hard and fast rule, that in fact never existed.

There could be a hard and fast rule about no dinner at a member's house without an investigator. And it is possible that the rule could also include the fact that if you don't have an investigator, that you just work through the dinner hour and wait till you get home before eating (or missionaries might just assume that). But knowing that he only has heard of this "rule" from other missionaries who served in Brazil or other latin countries (that also have large lunches), it makes a lot of sense and it is completely acceptable to me. As you said, guerreiro9, it would be analogous to US missionaries scheduling large lunches with members in addition to their scheduled dinners and I would expect a Mission President to crack down on that behaviour.

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As I'm sure most of you know, showing up in the mission field is quite a shocker.

Nothing shocked me about arriving in the Mission Home in Salt Lake, the Language Training Mission in Provo, or Germany. ... I don't think I had any companions who where shocked when they arrived in the field.

I have to confess that I was one of those who was shocked, and quite terribly so. I was completely unprepared for some of the things to which I was exposed as a missionary. For example, the handful of other missionaries I met who seemed turned off by the whole experience because it actually involved work and sacrifice instead of endless member-supplied meals and fawning accolades. And then there were the ones who, utterly unfamiliar on a personal level with the process of conversion, had no idea how to help others experience the transforming power of the Saviour and so instead translated the mission opportunity into some kind of numbers game.

Of course, maybe I'm just easily shocked. For example, it's a shocker to me that the author of the website under discussion could use the word 'objective' with a straight face ... and seem to think that people are going to fall for the whole 'no spin' angle, too.

Anything I can do to not be seen as 'anti', I will (emphasis added).

This at least is an honest statement.

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There could be a hard and fast rule about no dinner at a member's house without an investigator. And it is possible that the rule could also include the fact that if you don't have an investigator, that you just work through the dinner hour and wait till you get home before eating (or missionaries might just assume that). But knowing that he only has heard of this "rule" from other missionaries who served in Brazil or other latin countries (that also have large lunches), it makes a lot of sense and it is completely acceptable to me. As you said, guerreiro9, it would be analogous to US missionaries scheduling large lunches with members in addition to their scheduled dinners and I would expect a Mission President to crack down on that behaviour.

At the very least, futuremissionary needs to rewrite his text about the subject. One could say for example, that on the mission field, the mission president can set rules that may seem crazy or arbitrary. And then give an example. And then, write that one is not alone in living the rules since there will be many missionaries who will need to follow them too. All for one and one for all.

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1965....is there any evidence this goes on nowadays?

None that I know of and that's why I was specific. The MP was manipulative in his rules and control. He had district and zone leaders spy on missionaries, along with policies that encouraged dishonesty. When he was replaced by a kinder, more understanding MP, there followed a period of chaos, not unlike the ensuing chaos after the fall of the USSR. The new MP was not lenient, it was just that some missionaries did not know how to respond once the restrictive rules were lifted.

Edited by bcuzbcuz

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For a balanced but realistic perspective on serving a mission, this article is worth reading:

http://www.realclear...th_busting.html

You're absolutely right. That is worth reading ... very much. Although I can never think of the film God's Army without lamenting its creator's exit from the faith, reading that article called to mind the feeling I had when I first saw that movie: Finally! Here's somebody who 'gets it'!" If missions aren't all "sweetness-and-light," neither are they all "dullness-and-drudgery": they're some mixture of the two (and various points in between), so that the things on the undesirable end of the spectrum make missionaries appreciate, all the more, the things on the highly-desirable end of the spectrum. Thanks for passing that along. :)

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Not that we need any more evidence of this guy's dishonesty, but until I called him out on it he was presenting a Joseph Fielding Smith anti-evolution quote as an excerpt from a First Presidency statement. Even if the quote in question hadn't contained the phrase "I say most emphatically", which would be ridiculous in a statement coming from three people, there's no way that kind of thing was an honest mistake. He also said that Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" is an official church publication because David O. McKay authorized its reprinting. (Never mind that it isn't even published anymore.) Of course when I messaged him and pointed out his deceit and hypocrisy, he had the audacity to keep defending himself and playing "Mr. Innocent". Don Bradley's use of the term "anti-Mormon" (which I try to avoid as well) is more than appropriate in this instance.

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Not that we need any more evidence of this guy's dishonesty, but until I called him out on it he was presenting a Joseph Fielding Smith anti-evolution quote as an excerpt from a First Presidency statement. Even if the quote in question hadn't contained the phrase "I say most emphatically", which would be ridiculous in a statement coming from three people, there's no way that kind of thing was an honest mistake. He also said that Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" is an official church publication because David O. McKay authorized its reprinting. (Never mind that it isn't even published anymore.) Of course when I messaged him and pointed out his deceit and hypocrisy, he had the audacity to keep defending himself and playing "Mr. Innocent". Don Bradley's use of the term "anti-Mormon" (which I try to avoid as well) is more than appropriate in this instance.

Yes, back when the site was still in beta I had some mistakes in there. Thanks again for pointing that one out. I removed it long before we went out of beta.

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