Men Dressing Up As Women In Egyptian Ceremonies

[Brian 2.0]

In regards to the claim that Joseph Smith got the sexes wrong in some of his interpretations of Fac #3 in the Book of Abraham, the rebuttal is that “on certain occasions, for certain ritual purposes, some Egyptian men dressed up as women.” (John Gee, The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham)

I will grant that fact freely... but how does that provide any evidence for the accuracy of Joseph Smith’s interpretations?

Joseph labels Figure 2 as “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.” All published translations that I have read, LDS and non identify Figure 2 as the Goddess Isis. The figure in the facsimiles is also in female attire.

Applying the rebuttal that men sometimes dressed up at women for certain ceremonies, what does that tell us? That King Pharaoh perhaps dressed up at The Goddess Isis? For what purpose? Joseph Smith did not say they are acting out a judgment scene of the dead before Osiris. Rather, Joseph says this is Abraham is sitting on the throne by the politeness of King Pharaoh reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy. So why would King Pharaoh go and change into women’s clothes to act out the part of the Goddess Isis to listen to Abraham talk about Astronomy?

I'm confused as to how the evidence of men dressing up as women for certain rituals means anything in regards to the debate on the accuracy of Joseph Smith's explanations of Facsimile. What am I missing here?

[EllenMaksoud]

In regards to the claim that Joseph Smith got the sexes wrong in some of his interpretations of Fac #3 in the Book of Abraham, the rebuttal is that “on certain occasions, for certain ritual purposes, some Egyptian men dressed up as women.” (John Gee, The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham)

I will grant that fact freely... but how does that provide any evidence for the accuracy of Joseph Smith’s interpretations?

Joseph labels Figure 2 as “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.” All published translations that I have read, LDS and non identify Figure 2 as the Goddess Isis. The figure in the facsimiles is also in female attire.

Applying the rebuttal that men sometimes dressed up at women for certain ceremonies, what does that tell us? That King Pharaoh perhaps dressed up at The Goddess Isis? For what purpose? Joseph Smith did not say they are acting out a judgment scene of the dead before Osiris. Rather, Joseph says this is Abraham is sitting on the throne by the politeness of King Pharaoh reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy. So why would King Pharaoh go and change into women’s clothes to act out the part of the Goddess Isis to listen to Abraham talk about Astronomy?

I'm confused as to how the evidence of men dressing up as women for certain rituals means anything in regards to the debate on the accuracy of Joseph Smith's explanations of Facsimile. What am I missing here?

Sigh, it's even worse than that! I think they probably dressed like women all the time in that climate. There were no tighty-whities, or levis, In many areas of Indonesia, men wear sarongs just like the women. Maybe the Egypian dudes were just dressing like men of the time?

[Kevin Christensen]

In regards to the claim that Joseph Smith got the sexes wrong in some of his interpretations of Fac #3 in the Book of Abraham, the rebuttal is that “on certain occasions, for certain ritual purposes, some Egyptian men dressed up as women.” (John Gee, The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham)

I will grant that fact freely... but how does that provide any evidence for the accuracy of Joseph Smith’s interpretations?

Joseph labels Figure 2 as “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.” All published translations that I have read, LDS and non identify Figure 2 as the Goddess Isis. The figure in the facsimiles is also in female attire.

Applying the rebuttal that men sometimes dressed up at women for certain ceremonies, what does that tell us? That King Pharaoh perhaps dressed up at The Goddess Isis? For what purpose? Joseph Smith did not say they are acting out a judgment scene of the dead before Osiris. Rather, Joseph says this is Abraham is sitting on the throne by the politeness of King Pharaoh reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy. So why would King Pharaoh go and change into women’s clothes to act out the part of the Goddess Isis to listen to Abraham talk about Astronomy?

I'm confused as to how the evidence of men dressing up as women for certain rituals means anything in regards to the debate on the accuracy of Joseph Smith's explanations of Facsimile. What am I missing here?

You ought to read this chapter on the topic, from Nibley's Abraham in Egypt:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=48&chapid=294

And Gee here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=40&chapid=167

For a basic grounding on the topic and issues.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Brian 2.0]

You ought to read this chapter on the topic, from Nibley's Abraham in Egypt:

http://maxwellinstit...d=48&chapid=294

And Gee here:

http://maxwellinstit...d=40&chapid=167

For a basic grounding on the topic and issues.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks for the link. I have already read the Gee article you mentioned and it does not have any information specifically about the topic of men dressing up as women.

I have not recently read the Nibley chapter you linked to so i will take a more detailed look at that.

[Ron Beron]

During one of BYU's recent excavations in Egypt (Excavations at Seila, Egypt) they discovered a male mummy dressed as a female. It confused the archaeologists as well as myself, but there is a tradition within Mesopotamian literature which, I believe is reflected in the Song of Solomon, weds the king to the Goddess figure. Hierosgamos or sacred marriage allows the participants to assume the power of the goddess ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos ). There is, of course, no direct corollary between the two, but worth considering.

[altersteve]

I will grant that fact freely... but how does that provide any evidence for the accuracy of Joseph Smith’s interpretations?

It doesn't. It just means he might not have been wrong about this one.

[Brian 2.0]

It doesn't. It just means he might not have been wrong about this one.

might not have been wrong about what one?

Joseph Smith never said it was the King dressing up like Isis, or dressing like a female figure. It's equally easy to believe he believed that that's how Egyptian men dressed.

So what's the next step? Men can dress up like women... okay... so then are we saying JS was explaning who was really under the costume. that it's King Pharoah, simply dressed as Goddess Isis while he listens to Abraham talk about astronomy?

[Brian 2.0]

Take the following crazy hypothetical (I know i'll get a slew of "I don't like hypotheticals", but it will help illustrate my issue)...

Say someone shows me a drawing that looks a lot like Meryl Streep, and written above her head are the words "Meryl Streep".

I identify the person in the drawing as Matt Damon, and say the writting above the head indicates that.

I die, and critics soon confront my son about how I got my explanation of the drawing so wrong.

My son, defending my explanation, produces a clip from Tootsie where Dustin Hoffman dresses up like a woman.

He also shows clips from the TV show Bosom Buddies where Tom Hanks dresses up like a woman.

He pronounces that sometimes actors dresses up like women... so maybe my Dad's explanation was right.

Now... how much has my son really accomplished?

EDITED to correct spelling of Bosom Buddies. it's important to get this right.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[Calm]

Now... how much has my son really accomplished?

Too much, he has brought back images I had hoped were scrubbed from my mind.