35 replies to this topic

[TruthSeeker2013]

tyler90az, on 24 May 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

2. Yes there are. We do not deny similar experiences happen in other religions. That is where God wants them to be until their opportunity to receive the whole gospel. Imagine stairs, you receive some truth then have the option of going to another step. Every person has a different set of stairs they must go up. That is even true for those born in the gospel.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of it this way before.

[Pa Pa]

TruthSeeker2013, on 24 May 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry I misunderstood you. Can you explain what you mean when you say "only spiritual experiences that are true"? Do you mean that the Evangelical in my example would have felt feelings which are consistent with how spiritual experiences are described but that her feelings weren't in fact from the spirit? If so, how would she know if her feelings or yours are correct?

I was badly trying to explain that Spiritual experiences come from God, as it relates to truth, this is the source.

[Stone holm]

In the last analysis it comes down to a decision to believe.  You can intentionally create a spiritual experience, but ultimately it comes down to a decision to believe. Most converts do not join because of agreeing with our doctrine or because of studying and comparing our truth claims, but because they were touched sufficiently with emotion that they made the decision to believe.

[Storm Rider]

Emotion is not the Spirit and never has been.

[Kevin Christensen]

TruthSeeker2013, on 24 May 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Mormon truth claims can be examined for their accuracy but the Church teaches that it is by the spirit that one can know the truth of something. This is said to be a feeling of warmth, agreement in your heart and mind, a feeling of peace, etc.

My question is this: How can one know whether these feelings are God testifying that something is true? Are there not many other Christians (and other religious people) who themselves feel these feelings about their own leaders, doctrines, etc. and thus believe that they are true? How can we know that our feelings are the correct ones from God and theirs are not?

(And I'm talking about things that are at odds, like Evangelicals feeling that God has told them through the spirit that the Book of Mormon is false and Mormons obviously feeling that the spirit has told them the opposite).

Consequently, should our quest for truth involve a greater focus on investigating the truth claims of religions rather than relying on the universally felt spirit of God?

Have you read my essay on "A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience" which uses the lens of comparative religious experience.  If so, what do you think?  If not, why not?

http://dl.dropbox.co..._experience.pdf

A bit here:

Quote

Why make a model of religious experience?  Ian Barbour writes that models are “organizing images used to order and interpret patterns of experience.” [1]  Take one aspect of Mormon religious experience.  How do you answer the question, “How are prayers answered?” Mormonism contains a far more comprehensive answer to that question than we generally realize. The stock answer, based on the D&C 9 revelation to Oliver Cowdery, is a good beginning, but unfortunately, we too often stop there. In this paper, I list scriptures that describe at least thirty different ways that prayers are answered. The Bible contains just a few descriptions; the modern scriptures contain many. Thirty different kinds of answers may sound like a lot to manage, but if you ponder them for a while, they do suggest patterns. The first pattern I noticed was the division between Feeling kinds of passages, such as D&C 9:8-9, and Thinking kinds of passages, such Alma 32:34.  This natural complementary relationship between Thinking and Feeling aspects is a very useful beginning in ordering the kinds of experience described in these scriptures.

But that beginning leads me to take the question a step further—How do the kinds of spiritual experiences described in our scriptures compare to the kinds of spiritual experiences that underlie the spiritual experiences of mankind in general?  How do we orient ourselves in relation to everyone else?  We can start by looking at doctrinal differences, but that immediately defines boundaries and erects barriers. What do we have in common?  Is there a common wine of core religious experience that remains fairly constant despite the differing doctrinal wineskins that we use to carry them in?  Scholars of religion like Rudolf Otto, Ninian Smart, and Mircea Eliade have made significant studies of comparative religion.  Where do we fit in their pictures?

Often our first attempts to orient ourselves place us squarely in the shoes of Joseph Smith when he began his religious quest.  We have our minds disquieted by a confusing array of religious claims.  The confusion is something that we all have to order and interpret at some point. It is difficult, if not impossible to communicate with those of differing views, or ever to take bearings on our own position without some place of fairly solid footing, a common ground upon which most people can at least comprehend.  Ideally, we seek a vantage point that can both explain and order commonality, and that can also account for differences.



[1] Ian Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms: A Comparative Study of Science and Religion (New York:Harper and Row, 1974), 7.

It seems to me that the anxiety that many people have over this question is much influenced by where they might be on the Perry Scheme of Cognitive and Ethical Growth.  Those in the earlier "All or Nothing" stage will inevitably feel a great deal of tension, as will those in transitional phases in which there is a great deal of anxiety over a lack of absolute certainty.  After all, without absolute certainty, how can anyone have faith?  Such a question, of course, self destructs if one considers the inherent absurdity of insisting on certainty before acquiesing to faith's bottom-line definitional position of committment without certainty.   I think Alma 32 captures the dilemma in its important contrast of those who demand to finally "know" and those who settle for a process of exploring what he calls "cause to believe" that falls short of absolute knowledge.

Alma seems to me to point directly at the final stage of the Perry Scheme, and not towards the absolute certainty that characterizes the first stage, and which soon works into a process of awareness, struggle, and either progress, or regerss.

But here is a link to a helpful introduction to the Perry Scheme:

http://dl.dropbox.co...erry Scheme.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Bethel Park, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen, Today, 09:04 AM.

[Stone holm]

Storm Rider, on 25 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Emotion is not the Spirit and never has been.

True, but it sometimes feels like it to a lot of people, it is usually accompanied by an emmotional reaction.

[ERayR]

The question: Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

Answer:  To me mine are superior

[Stone holm]

ERayR, on 25 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

The question: Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

Answer:  To me mine are superior

I suspect most of us Mormons think that our spiritual experiences are superior to those of followers of other faiths -- that is why many find us religiously irritating....sigh.  Missionary work is primarily successful if you locate people who are already "dry Mormons" and who are looking.  It tends not to be successful, no matter how much praying the otherside does if they are not looking or are already strong in another faith -- does that mean the Lord is selective in who He gives the correct conclusions to?  Normally, we pass it off as: 1) they didn't pray, 2) they didn't actually read the B of M, or 3) they were unworthy.  We hesitate to conclude that they prayed and didn't get confirmation, because the B of M says they should have gotten confirmation.

Edited by Stone holm, Today, 08:37 AM.

[mfbukowski]

Kevin Christensen, on 25 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

But here is a link to a helpful introduction to the Perry Scheme:

http://dl.dropbox.co...erry Scheme.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Bethel Park, PA

That stage 9 absolutely says it all

[ERayR]

Stone holm, on 25 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I suspect most of us Mormons think that our spiritual experiences are superior to those of followers of other faiths -- that is why many find us religiously irritating....sigh.

Whoa hoss that is not what I said.  Read it again.  What I said is that to ME my experiences are superior.  My experiences are just that, my experiences.  They have no validity for others.

[Pa Pa]

TruthSeeker2013, on 24 May 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

I appreciate your opinion and like what you're saying, but would you agree that the Church teaches otherwise? Would not the Church take the position that an Evangelical who believes she has been told by the spirit of God that the Book of Mormon is false has in fact not received that feeling from the spirit of God?

It has been my experience that EV's don't pray that the BoM is true or false, they simply believe that anything other than the Bible is false. Many believe that even to entertain the idea that anything other than the Bible is true is a grievous sin, the same with the Trinity, which states that "if one is to be saved they must think upon the Trinity" (hope I got that right). I once had a lung tumor, the doctors thought it was cancer. My daughter had just left for a mission and I was seated at my computer writing a farewell letter and praying for the right words. A "Spirit of peace" came over me and assured me that no matter what, I would see her again and someday her children (my grandchildren, who now number 4 of hers). All fear was gone and I knew this blessing would come without doubt. It turned out to be sarcoidosis and now I have 7 grandchildren. When I received a testimony of the BoM, it was much earlier at 21. This has lead to all my married children, being married in the Temple and two serving missions. God loves even me, but he will not tell me one truth and someone else another. I have asked many over the years and none have told me they even prayed about the Bible being true, after having had a Spiritual experience they have just assumed it is and as such assuming that anything beyond the Bible false due to sermons making such comments. Thankfully, I asked about the BoM...too many assume that the Bible, BoM, Torah and Koran are true because they grew up being taught so. Being a convert, I did not. I will admit having grown up outside the Church and having read the Bible since a child (my dad was a Baptist Pastor and I preached for a short time to see if it was for me) that is what lead me to the BoM, because I felt the same Spirit as I did while reading the Bible. In addition I had an unbelievable experience when someone gave me a BoM, just from taking it into my hand. Although raised in a different Church, I was born to be LDS. Cuturally I am Baptist, doctrinally I am a Mormon. Hopes this helps.

Wow, just realized it has been 34 years now...joined in (what was then) West Germany and sealed in the Swiss Temple...already had two children then, when they were brought back at 5 and 3, and laid their hands on ours on the alter...there was not a dry eye in the room. We had four couple friends with us and the sisters, including the sister Temple workers were bawling...so was mom and dad, one of the best days of my life!

Edited by Pa Pa, Today, 11:06 AM.

[omni]

I've been watching the new TV series on NatGeo called Polygamy USA about a fundamentalist Mormon community in Centennial Park, AZ.  It's interesting to see how much of an emphasis they place on praying and asking God for answers to their questions, must notably whom they should marry.  They are following Moroni's promise to pray and ask God if their church is the true church and are receiving spiritual confirmation that it is.  

In this community it is customary for the women to ask God who they should marry, not the other way around.  One polygamous wife related her story that she had been praying to know who to marry and one day saw her future husband (who was already married to two other women) and at that moment she felt this incredible warmth fill her whole body and she KNEW without a doubt who she was to marry.  This is the exact process and response we are taught as Latter-Day Saints to follow, so why did she receive an answer to enter into a polygamous relationship?  This isn't an isolated event either, these powerful spiritual experiences are happening to millions of people all over the world every day.

[rpn]

That isn't how the Lord does marriage inspiration.  He requires that people make their own decisions and then He confirms them.  If He were to tell people to marry X, then who do you think would get the blame if the marriage didn't turn out good?  And that would be a stumbling block to solving whatever struggles there are in a marriage.

[rpn]

deleted --- duplicate

Edited by rpn, Today, 01:11 PM.

[omni]

So if God confirms you should marry a specific person how is there any less blame than if he told you who to marry?  Anyways that aspect is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.  This women (and many other women in the community) did exactly as we are taught to do; she prayed to receive an answer to an important question and described receiving a confirmation to her question in the exact same way we do.  I wish I had a transcript, but she described receiving a confirmation to her question in a way in which she KNEW, doubting nothing.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know too many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who believe we have the absolute corner on "truth" (whatever and wherever that is).  Christ said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."  I believe He also said, "Inasmuch as men do good [men of whatever religious stripe, or even of no particular religious stripe], they shall in nowise lose their reward."  While I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ because I believe this is where the most good fruit can be found, good fruit is borne by people of every religious stripe, and even by people of good will of no religious stripe.  I prefer the approach outlined in this link for resolving questions of "truth" and for determining the standing of each person before God.  http://greatgourdini...igious-oneness/

Edited by Kenngo1969, Today, 01:25 PM.