Dying For The Gospel

[tyler90az]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

Edited May 23, 2013 by tyler90az

[Questing Beast]

To know what you would say in a hypothetical "deny or die" situation is impossible. I like Jack London's short story, "The God of his Fathers", to illustrate a fanciful confrontation. It could happen, I suppose, in the modern world in "third world countries", where radicals have a mad-on against "Christian" Americans....

[tyler90az]

To know what you would say in a hypothetical "deny or die" situation is impossible. I like Jack London's short story, "The God of his Fathers", to illustrate a fanciful confrontation. It could happen, I suppose, in the modern world in "third world countries", where radicals have a mad-on against "Christian" Americans....

I do not think it will happen.

Listening to people and reading about martyrs always leaves me scratching my head. There is no doubt they are courageous and true disciples of Jesus Christ. It is just hard to believe that such a thing would be required.

[MormonMason]

So many people in the world today who no longer believe what Jesus said and taught...even in his Church...

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 10:33 [see also verses 28-39])

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

Living for the gospel is much more difficult than dying for it. If for no other reason, I would not deny the Christ to anyone, because it is not in me to do so...and just out of spite against the person threatening me. I have had guns pointed at me before...you just get mad...and then arrest them.

[why me]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

We can hear of christian martyrdom everyday in the Arab world and in africa where christians are murdered for their faith. These people could forsake their faith but they choose not to do so. One problem is very simple. Once labeled a christian and then faced with death, denying the faith may get a more gruesome death by the mobs because they know that the person is only attempting to save his or her own skin. I think that a faith denial and a conversion to the other faith needs to occur before faced with death.

So, a better question is: if one got wind of extreme persecution for that particular faith that one belongs to in the future, would one give that faith up to escape possible persecution or death?

Edited May 24, 2013 by why me

[tyler90az]

So, a better question is: if one got wind of extreme persecution for that particular faith that one belongs to in the future, would one give that faith up to escape possible persecution or death?

That is something completely different.

I am talking about something that has happened many times in history. You either deny and live on or die.

[SamIam]

I do not think it will happen.

Listening to people and reading about martyrs always leaves me scratching my head. There is no doubt they are courageous and true disciples of Jesus Christ. It is just hard to believe that such a thing would be required.

As to the necessity of the Prophet's death, the Lord said, "I took him to myself." By way of explanation he added, "Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned" (D&C 136:38-39). Of the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith the scripture declares: "The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. . . .(Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions, p47.)

[omni]

So many people in the world today who no longer believe what Jesus said and taught...even in his Church...

So an otherwise devout mother who denied Christ in a moment of fear and terror for her life would then be denied in heaven? Some things just make me scratch my head and go, huh?

[Gervin]

I'm reminded of Flannery O'Connor's "A Good Man Is Hard To Find."

"... she would have been a good woman if someone had been there to shoot her every minute of her life."

Edited May 24, 2013 by Gervin

[MormonMason]

So an otherwise devout mother who denied Christ in a moment of fear and terror for her life would then be denied in heaven? Some things just make me scratch my head and go, huh?

Like I said, so many who no longer believe Christ or his words.... Unfortunate. Someone truly devout and who truly understood the Gospel and its significance would never deny the Christ for any reason.

Edited May 24, 2013 by MormonMason

[mrmendoza]

I do not think it will happen.

Listening to people and reading about martyrs always leaves me scratching my head. There is no doubt they are courageous and true disciples of Jesus Christ. It is just hard to believe that such a thing would be required.

Well, it's not thatGod requires it, but evil people will often force you to make choices you shouldn't otherwise have to!

That is something completely different.

I am talking about something that has happened many times in history. You either deny and live on or die.

I think that the word "renounce" is more apropiate most of the time. that is to say,"I used to believe but not anymore!"

Iread somewhere once that during the march from Kirtland to Missouri with Zions Camp,when they were going through Missouri it'self they were advised to say nothing to the local about who they were or why they were there.I suppose that some might look at that as a form of denying>

So an otherwise devout mother who denied Christ in a moment of fear and terror for her life would then be denied in heaven? Some things just make me scratch my head and go, huh?

Like I said, so many who no longer believe Christ or his words.... Unfortunate. Someone truly devout and who truly understood the Gospel and its significance would never deny the Christ for any reason.

Lest we be so quick to judge, let's not forget about Peter, his denial was adament even to the point of doing so with an oath and curssing! (See Mat. 26:69-75) Do we really know what we might do in every circumstance, even if we'd like to think we do?

Mike

[MormonMason]

...

Lest we be so quick to judge, let's not forget about Peter, his denial was adament even to the point of doing so with an oath and curssing! (See Mat. 26:69-75) Do we really know what we might do in every circumstance, even if we'd like to think we do?

Mike

Yes, he did deny. He also repented and wept bitterly when he realized what he had done. He later in life died at the hands of men and refused to deny his faith when the opportunity to do so arose. When Peter denied three times on that earlier, fateful day, his life wasn't even really in danger. His life was in danger later in time and he willingly went to the cross for his faith.

But, none of this changes the fact that a larger and larger number of people, even in the Church, are looking for ways to deny what Christ has taught and said, and are doing so. It is all around us.

[Mudcat]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

Bold mine. I think your wrong on that.

Underline mine. I guess Stephen made a call?

God forgives the cowardly.. He doesn't suggest you should be one..I don't think

Edited May 24, 2013 by Mudcat

[mrmendoza]

Yes, he did deny. He also repented and wept bitterly when he realized what he had done. He later in life died at the hands of men and refused to deny his faith when the opportunity to do so arose. When Peter denied three times on that earlier, fateful day, his life wasn't even really in danger. His life was in danger later in time and he willingly went to the cross for his faith.

But, none of this changes the fact that a larger and larger number of people, even in the Church, are looking for ways to deny what Christ has taught and said, and are doing so. It is all around us.

I'm inclined to think that if I were put in the position of denying for the sake of the lives of my children or family, I might do so.

Also while I don't think that being threatened with sure death would be enough to cause me to renounce or deny my faith, I'm not sure that I could hold out very long if I were being tortured!

To me though, dying for my faith would seem a lot easier then just living for it! or at least sometimes feels that way!

As for the fact thata larger number of people, even in the Church are looking for a way out, that should not be so hard to understand. Satan is working harder and harder especially now. There are more people both in the Church as well as not.

The question is, or should be, "Are there a larger percentage of believers in the whole that are falling away?"

Mike

[Tacenda]

I'm inclined to think that if I were put in the position of denying for the sake of the lives of my children or family, I might do so.

Also while I don't think that being threatened with sure death would be enough to cause me to renounce or deny my faith, I'm not sure that I could hold out very long if I were being tortured!

To me though, dying for my faith would seem a lot easier then just living for it! or at least sometimes feels that way!

As for the fact thata larger number of people, even in the Church are looking for a way out, that should not be so hard to understand. Satan is working harder and harder especially now. There are more people both in the Church as well as not.

The question is, or should be, "Are there a larger percentage of believers in the whole that are falling away?"

Mike

I was absolutely shocked to hear about yet another stalwart member who use to be in my ward has left the church and the gossip is... that he holds his own church in his home. He would be one of the last people I'd think would leave. I remember when he and his wife took a vacation by visiting as mamy temples as possible.

[Robert F. Smith]

Pastor Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

[tyler90az]

I'm inclined to think that if I were put in the position of denying for the sake of the lives of my children or family, I might do

That is an easy call, even dying to further cost of Christ. I am talking about allowing yourself to die when there are no advantages to to it. If anything I think the only reason God would want us to do it is return to him. I reject the notion that we must die to show our righteousness and courage. God knows not only what we say but what we think and truly believe. Brother mon son aid paraphrasing, "It is not so hard to die manually as it is to live righteously." The sum total of our lives is our offering to God not one moment.

Edited May 24, 2013 by tyler90az

[Palerider]

From what I've read regarding torture, my understanding is that no matter who you are, eventually you will say whatever someone wants you to. If it's bad enough, everybody breaks.

A quick bullet to the head would be a different story.

[SamIam]

Lest we be so quick to judge, let's not forget about Peter, his denial was adament even to the point of doing so with an oath and curssing! (See Mat. 26:69-75) Do we really know what we might do in every circumstance, even if we'd like to think we do?

Mike

Lest we be too quick to think this point has merit let's explore a bit deeper. At this point Peter has been counseled "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." This same Peter , who walked on water, this same Peter, who has stood on the Mount of transfiguration in the presence of those he thought dead in Moses and Elisha, this same Peter who has healed and cast out demons, this same Peter who rightly speaks a convincing testimony of Christ as the Son of God revealed by the Spirit, this same Peter rejected the counsel of the master because he did not understand that he, who had experienced such profound spiritual experiences could possibly be unconverted proclaiming instead that the Lord did not know him very well for he was ready to follow him to death if need be.

Is this same Peter any different than many of us who profess such acclamation of faith and strength when faced with thoughts of tough times but live in mostly times limited in challenge compared to a probable soon to be future?

Now let's look at what made all of the difference. The same Peter, who did nothing more than prove the words of the master that eve of his crucifixion that in spite of Peters protestations and powerful experiences he was unconverted...that same Peter changed. Some weeks later, he received the Holy Ghost, which we are enjoined to do but many often do not. However, Peter did and at that time he was born again - converted wherein he became a new creature born again of the spirit. Thus from that day forth we have a different, a much different Peter, who at the time of his death saw it a great opportunity to die in the name of his Master. So much so that he requested the torture of being hung upside down on a cross for he was unworthy of death in an upright position as was his master. In that moment, this same Peter shows you and me that unconverted men are weak and abysmal wretches who often think they are more than they are. Yet, this converted Peter who willingly suffers torture, unimaginable suffering over a drawn out and protracted period of time never breaks, never denies his Savior, never recants his testimony,

In my mind anyone who presents the weak unconverted Peter as an example of what men are, is more like the Peter they see and present to the world. However, if you would truly know Peter, the converted Peter, the born again Peter, who ultimately passed all of the tests of his life then you must yourself become as he became and be truly converted by receiving the Holy Ghost. You should stop this instance thinking you know anything at all and seek out that which is most important and and beg and plead to receive the Holy Ghost and maybe then you can understand the greatness of the convert called Peter.

[CV75]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

I think the impact of one's death on himself and others is propotional to his spiritual life in accordance with the manner of both his mortal life and death.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Bold mine. I think your wrong on that.

Underline mine. I guess Stephen made a call?

God forgives the cowardly.. He doesn't suggest you should be one..I don't think

Amen, my friend.

[Calm]

I am not talking about dying to further the gospel cause. Nor am I talking about dying for believing the gospel. What I have been thinking about recently is if I was threatened with death would I say I am not a believer? There are three reasons I have came up with why it would not be God's will to have us die.

Saying you do not believe in a situation like that is not a sin. It violates our agency to be forced to say something.

It would prematurely stop the Gospel from spreading through you. Not only through your family but anybody else that you were suppose to bring to the Gospel.

God knows what is in our hearts and minds. To say you must say you are a believer faced with death is not having faith that God is omniscient.

http://marriottschoo...cfm?loc=feature

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1997/10/standing-for-truth-and-right?lang=eng

When we covenant in the waters of baptism to “stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places,” we’re not talking solely about fast and testimony meetings. It may not always be easy, convenient, or politically correct to stand for truth and right, but it is always the right thing to do. Always.

Edited May 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[tyler90az]

http://marriottschoo...cfm?loc=feature

https://www.lds.org/...-right?lang=eng

Those are two vastly different stories of the same situation. In Apostle Ballard's story it does not even frame it as a deny or die situation. I would have to side with Apostle Ballard on this one. Apostle Ballard says, "As he traveled from California to his home in Utah, he was confronted one morning by a “wagonload of profane drunks … , shooting their guns, yelling wildly, and cursing the Mormons.” One of the drunks, “waving a pistol,”" Sister Dew's is the only version that hints at it being a deny or die situation. We are left to either cancel both of these versions out or take the Apostle's version.

Moreover, this was not really a deny or die situation or he would have died. Any real deny or die situation leaves you dead after you do not deny. Then you throw in the fact he more then likely saved lives by coming out of the brush. In a previous post I said I would only say not to die if it has no advantage. This situation had a big advantage for those around him.

Couple the advantage with the fact we do not know if Joseph F Smith was listening to the Holy Ghost guide him. A good indication that he was listening to the Holy Ghost is that he did not die. Otherwise his actions would have been complete suicide as he was in a good hiding spot. There are just too many variables that could have caused him to say it. especially knowing he did not die and came out of hinding to say he believed.

In sum, this is not th same situation I am talking about as he came out of the brush and probably saved many lives and did not die. Also, as a future Prophet and retured missionary; I would say he was listening to the Holy Ghost or at the very least had a good indication he would not die. Finally, those are two vastly different accounts of the same story, thereby, cancelling each other out or we are left to take the Apostle's version.

[MormonMason]

...

God forgives the cowardly.. He doesn't suggest you should be one..I don't think

While I am sure that there can be repentance for cowardice when it comes to Christ (Peter repented on his first round and died refusing to recant when he was older), consider also the following:

Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars---the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8, Good News Bible; bold emphasis mine)