Is Modesty Actually Damaging To Self-Worth?

[Buzzard]

IMNSHO modesty is not the cause of poor self image but the result of a poor self image.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you probably meant lack of modesty...

[Acris Venator]

Janelle Monáe addresses the issue quite nicely, I think.

[media=]

I love this, and she's dead on. No matter what you choose, righteousness or sin, the booty don't lie.

Temple bodies are a truth unto themselves. Fame and blame are just shenanigans.

[Tacenda]

BD, for sure. Dressing immodestly in your eyes might be different than in mine. I was talking a little more on the risque side. My daughter is really big into fitness and not active in the church but will wear shorter shorts and tanks sometimes, she's not trying to get attention but why hide all her work and effort? I was speaking more of girls that dress kind of skanky. And that we shouldn't judge her like so many do and write her off immediately. Just like other attire or ways in which people dress. Like tattoos or several pairs of earrings.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

So the Church has a poor self-image because it insists on modesty?...

Not what I meant sorry. What I was trying to refute is the idea that modesty causes a poor self image.

[Stone holm]

There have been times when I have thought that the modesty issue gets pushed to the extent of pure silliness, but not often. It is not clear to me why it seems to always be aimed at the women, other than sex for some reason seems to be more attached in American society to women's attire than men's. That might possibly be because men dressing "sexy" has in our culture in the past been associated with homosexuality which carried with it a big taboo. There also seems to be just a little too much emphasis placed on grooming which can sometimes result in strange priorities.

[ERayR]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you probably meant lack of modesty...

Just when I thought I had this stuff down pat.

[Nathair/|\]

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/blackwhiteandgray/2012/10/modesty-its-not-a-bad-word/

[thesometimesaint]

I believe that true modesty reinforces of self-worth. However false modesty does just the opposite.

[Tacenda]

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/?mobile=nc

I'm going to go out on a limb and put the article under this thread. Elizabeth says that when you are raised in a very conservative way and then you're raped it's hard to face your family & friends etc. Maybe when we put too much on looks it can hurt. Maybe Elizabeth didn't get enough about other attributes in her life that she felt she was still good enough to be around those she was acquainted with or family even. I remember when our ward had a swimming party and my neighbor's daughter was upset that she didn't have a one piece suit. She had a very appropiate two piece and was only 10 yrs. old. There is limit to some madness out there I think. Also back to Elizabeth, remember the "licked cupcake" or "chewed gum" lessons in mutual? Are we going too far? I'll never forget being thrown out of a church volleyball game because I had a sleeveless shirt on when I was a teenager (maybe this was the beginnings of the rule?), thank goodness for a wonderful YW leader, I may never have returned to church.

[Calm]

Elizabeth says that when you are raised in a very conservative way and then you're raped it's hard to face your family & friends etc.

I don't think it is the conservative nature of a family or community that is the problem, I've seen very loving reactions and acceptance among conservative families. I suspect it is more among families with perfectionist or rigid family dynamics that are more the issue.

There have been many leaders that have gone too far with modesty, I am personally uncomfortable with the Friend focusing on it for a girl of about five or six not being able to wear a gift from her grandmother's without a T-shirt...why does that even need to be brought up? If the kid has been wearing t-shirts with sleeveless dresses, then surely she would have just assumed she would be doing so with that dress and not gone all angsty about wearing it all alone. It should be treated in a more matter of fact way, without anxiety attached to it.

I can understand concern with young children's clothing considering the climate that is being created with toddlers' beauty pageants and clothing lines that mimic adults...however associating clothing choices with negative feelings is not a good way to go about it.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[BlueDreams]

http://thinkprogress...e-ed/?mobile=nc

I'm going to go out on a limb and put the article under this thread. Elizabeth says that when you are raised in a very conservative way and then you're raped it's hard to face your family & friends etc. Maybe when we put too much on looks it can hurt. Maybe Elizabeth didn't get enough about other attributes in her life that she felt she was still good enough to be around those she was acquainted with or family even. I remember when our ward had a swimming party and my neighbor's daughter was upset that she didn't have a one piece suit. She had a very appropiate two piece and was only 10 yrs. old. There is limit to some madness out there I think. Also back to Elizabeth, remember the "licked cupcake" or "chewed gum" lessons in mutual? Are we going too far? I'll never forget being thrown out of a church volleyball game because I had a sleeveless shirt on when I was a teenager (maybe this was the beginnings of the rule?), thank goodness for a wonderful YW leader, I may never have returned to church.

Your points are kinda jumpy, but here’s my thoughts:

I agree whole-heartedly with everything Smart stated. Though I think your point about looks isn’t really mentioned in anyway in the article at all. I prefer to go with what she actually stated: that her belief that she was used and no one would want her was a major factor….notsomuch how she literally physically looked.

Rape is hard for anyone of any background to process and feelings of guilt and lack of worth are common. It isn’t so much that conservative ideas such as the chewed-gum analogy Smart mentioned are the cause of these feelings. Rather these messages exacerbate these emotions…especially on someone young whose knowledge about sexual issues is most likely very limited and maybe even more limited by the social constraints that mean frank discussion about the body is further limited.

That said, I do believe that there is/can be too much emphasis on physical looks and maintaining appearances. And it can be damaging to self concepts.

I don’t remember much of licked cupcake/chewed gum analogies. They’re dying out (thank heavens), though they are still used obviously. I think I do remember some chastity lessons with some sort of object lesson/analogy as a YW (obviously that didn’t stick in my mind) and I do remember really hating other chastity lessons as a YSA. I can list exactly 2 lessons that I didn’t mind much and 1 that I found amazing within a church context. That’s the gist.

With luv,

BD

Edited May 7, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

Your points are kinda jumpy, but here’s my thoughts:

I agree whole-heartedly with everything Smart stated. Though I think your point about looks isn’t really mentioned in anyway in the article at all. I prefer to go with what she actually stated: that her belief that she was used and no one would want her was a major factor….notsomuch how she literally physically looked.

Rape is hard for anyone of any background to process and feelings of guilt and lack of worth are common. It isn’t so much that conservative ideas such as the chewed-gum analogy Smart mentioned are the cause of these feelings. Rather these messages exacerbate these emotions…especially on someone young whose knowledge about sexual issues is most likely very limited and maybe even more limited by the social constraints that mean frank discussion about the body is further limited.

That said, I do believe that there is/can be too much emphasis on physical looks and maintaining appearances. And it can be damaging to self concepts.

I don’t remember much of licked cupcake/chewed gum analogies. They’re dying out (thank heavens), though they are still used obviously. I think I do remember some chastity lessons with some sort of object lesson/analogy as a YW (obviously that didn’t stick in my mind) and I do remember really hating other chastity lessons as a YSA. I can list exactly 2 lessons that I didn’t mind much and 1 that I found amazing within a church context. That’s the gist.

With luv,

BD

I'm unable to post topics because I'm still limited, is that how it'll feel when in a different kingdom than the CK? Anyway, that's why my comments were jumpy, trying to make it tie in, my bad. But when you think about it, it could work. Edited May 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[mercyngrace]

Tacenda,

Regarding the Elizabeth Smart article, I thought Kristine brief commentary at BCC was interesting.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/05/06/dear-church-leaders-fix-this-now/

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda,

Regarding the Elizabeth Smart article, I thought Kristine brief commentary at BCC was interesting.

http://bycommonconse...s-fix-this-now/

I don't believe we should excise that Scripture, but I believe further clarification would be a help.

[Ahab]

Are there different ways to teach modesty, and is there a better way to teach it?

Just mentioning the word "modesty" is enough to get a person to think about the issues involved, concentrated on appearance and demeanor, so No there's no way to teach it without getting a person's thoughts focused on those issues.

Kinda like hearing the word pornography, too, I think. Just the word itself invokes a lot of images concentrated on personal appearances. I hate hearing talks on either issue figuring I've already heard enough about all of that.

[AddamS]

I find it interesting that the concept of modesty pertains to sexual nature 99/100 times.

Some of the same people that condemn women with bare shoulders show up to church in $2,000 suits.

IMHO, I think the fella in the situation above is being much more immodest.

[Kenngo1969]

I have two daughters, and when I look at what the "world" teaches them about their bodies through magazines, television, movies, billboards, and peers at school, and then I see what the Church teaches them about their bodies through parents, church lessons, and The New Era, I'm not worried about them getting overwhelmed by the frequency, nature or volume of the Church side of things.

Wow, Cynicpro, you forgot the cynical punchline. You feelin' alright, Bro? (Sorry. Couldn't resist!)

[grhammjr]

any kind of over focus on appearance make us think about it more -- whether that focus is on modesty or revealment. I think it is a sticky subject, but better to address then to ignore.

[USU78]

I had a receptionist who'd paid a great deal for her . . . accoutrements . . . and always had them on display. She was covered up for the interviews, so I didn't object when my partners wanted to go with her over another candidate.

Then came the reality.

I was furious that she pushed them at us every day all day.

It's an imposition to have to be a gentleman and always look away when dealing with an employee.

She didn't last long.

[Bikeemikey]

BTW, I always point out that if David had been doing what he should have been doing, leading his armies and not "tarrying still at Jerusalem", he would not have been walking on that roof. So just be where you are supposed to be in the first place and you just might avoid a lot of the trouble and temptations we find ourselves in.

Got to love this... David got in trouble with sex because he wasn't focused enough on killing!!!

Edited May 15, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Stone holm]

Got to love this... David got in trouble with sex because he wasn't focused enough on killing!!!

Well you know sex and war just don't mix except in the movies.

[cinepro]

I find it interesting that the concept of modesty pertains to sexual nature 99/100 times.

Some of the same people that condemn women with bare shoulders show up to church in $2,000 suits.

IMHO, I think the fella in the situation above is being much more immodest.

Well, you see, that's different because expensive suits last longer so it's actually cheaper in the long run, and they probably need them for their job anyway, and even though "costly apparel" is sometimes mentioned alongside "pride" in the Book of Mormon it's entirely possible to have costly apparel and not be prideful, whereas it's not possible to dress immodestly and still be modest...

[thesometimesaint]

Well, you see, that's different because expensive suits last longer so it's actually cheaper in the long run, and they probably need them for their job anyway, and even though "costly apparel" is sometimes mentioned alongside "pride" in the Book of Mormon it's entirely possible to have costly apparel and not be prideful, whereas it's not possible to dress immodestly and still be modest...

Cheap apparel may be more costly in more than one way.

[AddamS]

... it's not possible to dress immodestly and still be modest...

Tell that to the faithful saints working at the Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii.

[JDave]

I'm pretty sure every culture has some way of being purposefully more alluring.

The principle, which is true across all cultures, is that there are certain things that are fine for a marriage relationship but are not OK for a dating relationship. Likewise some things that are fine for a dating relationship are not OK for interacting with the general public. We should all maintain propriety and decency, which will necessarily be culture-specific and may even involve clothing.