The Misinformation Around Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young

[CASteinman]

I will get to the CFR Tomorrow evening.

[Calm]

Its weird to me that this is so important and that what I have said is so offensive that it requires a formal CFR.

It is new (to me) or inaccurate (as I believe it to be) information that I ask CFRs for, offensive level has nothing to do with it.

[Calm]

An idiosyncratic definition -- or at least only partial. Dictionaries describe it thusly: "not truthful; wanting in veracity; diverging from or contrary to the truth; not corresponding with fact or reality."

ac·cu·ra·cy......

1.

the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact; freedom from error or defect; precisionor exactness; correctness.

2.

Chemistry, Physics. the extent to which a given measurement agrees with the standard value forthat measurement. Compare precision ( def 6 ) .

3.

Mathematics . the degree of correctness of a quantity, expression, etc. Compare precision ( def 5) .

http://dictionary.re...se/accuracy?s=t Edited April 30, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Deleted duplicate. My phone's got gremlins.

Edited April 30, 2013 by canard78

[CASteinman]

http://dictionary.re...se/accuracy?s=t

If you take definitions of definitions of definitions it can get really weird. But by the standard you have set, it does get to intent:

false·hood

noun \ˈfȯls-ˌhu̇d\

Definition of FALSEHOOD

1 : an untrue statement : lie

2 : absence of truth or accuracy

3 : the practice of lying : mendacity

I would like to be sure to point out though --- I do not believe this standard that you have established is valid.

Edited April 30, 2013 by CASteinman

[Calm]

Deleted duplicate. My phone's got gremlins.

Try not to get it wet or feed it after midnight....though I guess if it already has gremlins and not mogwais, it is too late.

[Calm]

I would like to be sure to point out though --- I do not believe this standard that you have established is valid.

And yet you were the one who appealed to the dictionary to support your claim it was not "untruthful".

[Glenn101]

The case of Zina and her husbands are ones we are going to have to leave to God. I wish that we had better information than we do. Maybe the information we do have is not presented as well as we would wish. But we have to look at the target audience. The milk or meat audience.

Glenn

[CASteinman]

And yet you were the one who appealed to the dictionary to support your claim it was not "untruthful".

Its not the dictionary that's a problem. Its how it is used. You will note that I only looked up the word "untruthful". I did not go looking up other words and then relate them to untruthful. It was THAT which I consider to be invalid.

You should also note that I objected to looking up "definitions of definitions" which should have been a clue to this.

Edited April 30, 2013 by CASteinman

[Calm]

The case of Zina and her husbands are ones we are going to have to leave to God. I wish that we had better information than we do. Maybe the information we do have is not presented as well as we would wish. But we have to look at the target audience. The milk or meat audience.

And I understand that many who write such articles aren't historians and didn't have the resources we have now to easily find out details so they don't make mistakes.

I am looking forward to a more accurate presentation as people work harder at getting historical information out there and available. It may take some time, but I see it happening overall.

[CASteinman]

A quick look around at what I think might be the sources for the CFR indicates to me that I have to purchase one or two books and I have to write to a couple of people. This may take me a week or so.

[Calm]

A quick look around at what I think might be the sources for the CFR indicates to me that I have to purchase one or two books and I have to write to a couple of people. This may take me a week or so.

Thank you for making the effort.

[canard78]

It is new (to me) or inaccurate (as I believe it to be) information that I ask CFRs for, offensive level has nothing to do with it.

Exactly, sometimes a CFR is simply 'where did you read that, I'd like to read it too.'

[canard78]

The case of Zina and her husbands are ones we are going to have to leave to God. I wish that we had better information than we do. Maybe the information we do have is not presented as well as we would wish. But we have to look at the target audience. The milk or meat audience.

Glenn

I agree that these three articles I've cited are probably a mixture of mostly ignorance coupled with some well-intentioned 'for milk drinkers' summary.

I don't believe there is some big conspiracy cover up. But I do consider it a problem that the church offers very few official sources for those who are ready for meat. Can you show me one official LDS source that gives the meat of Zina and polyandry?

I think the whole milk/meat line is also a little overused to justify inaccuracies. If milk can only be achieved by being inaccurate (as opposed to selective) surely this isn't justified? This was the same conversation I was having with about Moroni 7 with CASteinman, at would point are the ends NOT justified by the means?

Is it good or of God to be inaccurate (the means) if the end is promoting the faith of milk drinkers?

"12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually."(Book of Mormon, Moroni, Moroni 7)

[canard78]

A quick look around at what I think might be the sources for the CFR indicates to me that I have to purchase one or two books and I have to write to a couple of people. This may take me a week or so.

Thanks. It would be an interesting addition to the 'story' if this was initiated/suggested by Henry. I'll happily wait.

[CASteinman]

Thanks. It would be an interesting addition to the 'story' if this was initiated/suggested by Henry. I'll happily wait.

[ERayR]

Exactly, sometimes a CFR is simply 'where did you read that, I'd like to read it too.'

May I suggest in that case that you simply state your wish and save the CFR for really tough ones. Just a though, carry on.

[sunstoned]

Henry didn't leave Zina for "another woman." He had already submitted to priesthood authority and given up Zina to Brigham Young before he left on his mission. Furthermore, Zina's biographers note that by the time of Henry's engagement to Asenath Babcock, "Zina considered herself part of Brigham Young’s family" (see Martha Sonntag Bradley and Mary Brown Firmage Woodward, 4 Zinas: A Story of Mothers and Daughters on the Mormon Frontier [salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2000], 153).

Thank you for setting the record straight. Henry did take another wife only after BY took Zina from him.

[CASteinman]

Thanks. It would be an interesting addition to the 'story' if this was initiated/suggested by Henry. I'll happily wait.

I didn't say it was initiated by him.

In fact, since she was not so happy in the marriage with him it COULD have been initiated by her. But I don't think so.

I think he was told of Joseph Smiths desires to have her sealed to an Apostle. He had already agreed with Joseph that she was Joseph's eternal wife and he relinquished claims upon her. Nevertheless, he would have had to have decided to follow Joseph's wishes after Joseph died. Whether this was a hard or easy decision I do not know but he did decide to turn her over to someone else. Perhaps her unhappiness made it easier. Brigham Young reminded him of his duty but he still had to decide.

Edited April 30, 2013 by CASteinman

[sunstoned]

And this is why it's not worth the trouble to engage CASteinman. He's a troll.

1000+

[CASteinman]

Thank you for setting the record straight. Henry did take another wife only after BY took Zina from him.

I have to write to do some research as I said because the only source I can find for some if this is not on the Internet

[ERayR]

The problem I see is that you are looking for definitive, simple answers to complex relationships. Look about you even in our monogamous relationships couples sometimes separate for reasons that they often can not explain to themselves and their families. The opportunities of polygamy just adds another layer of complexity. Even with what is written we will never get inside their heads for definitive answers. Things like the upheaval of the expulsion, the uncertainty of whether they were going to starve all played into the dynamics of Zina's decisions. I really caution you in your attempts to find simple solutions from our modern position of ease and comfort.

[CASteinman]

1000+

Piling on eh? Did I do something to hurt your feelings?

[CASteinman]

May I suggest in that case that you simply state your wish and save the CFR for really tough ones. Just a though, carry on.

Good advice. Though this actually is a tough one.

Unfortunately it's value is not nearly in line with the toughness of the effort. I have to think the main reason people care so much is that this is a big hang up for them. I don't understand that but everyone is different and it seems its more than one person who is troubled

Edited April 30, 2013 by CASteinman

[canard78]

May I suggest in that case that you simply state your wish and save the CFR for really tough ones. Just a though, carry on.

Thanks, will bare that (bear that?) in mind.

I guess 'CFR' starts as a call for references (which is a neutral statement) but often has the implication of 'I don't believe you, prove it' so for some may be taken as a confrontation.