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Zion Society

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Exactly what would we expect a Zion type community to be like? We spend a lot of time encouraging people to work for such a society, but what would it be like. Can we envision it in anything other than what it would not be like?

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I think the closest description of a Zion society can be found here:

"And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of –ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings; yea, even they were blessed and prospered until an hundred and ten years had passed away; and the first generation from Christ had passed away, and there was no contention in all the land."

(Book of Mormon | 4 Nephi 1:15-18)

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for insight into Zion, I would recommend reading "The Triumph of Zion: Our Personal Quest for the New Jerusalem", by author John Pontius.

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Exactly what would we expect a Zion type community to be like? We spend a lot of time encouraging people to work for such a society, but what would it be like. Can we envision it in anything other than what it would not be like?

One of the best things about Zion is that everybody there eats and enjoys Zion Kosher deli meats and hot dogs... to die for! Or to be translated for -- whatever the case may be. "Could I have some kraut and a smear of spicy brown mustard with that heavenly tasting dog, please?"

Edited by teddyaware

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One of the best things about Zion is that everybody there eats and enjoys Zion Kosher deli meats and hot dogs... to die for! Or to be translated for -- whatever the case may be. "Could I have some kraut and a smear of spicy brown mustard with that heavenly tasting dog, please?"

I love that version of Zion, and it makes my mouth water.

Another version of Zion can be found in Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion (FARMS/Deseret, 1989), which is Nibley's best-seller.

You might also want to study Gordon Wagner's 1977 doctoral dissertation at Cornell, "Consecration and Stewardship: A Socially Efficient System of Justice."

J. W. Lucas, and W. P. Woodworth, Working toward Zion (Aspen Books, 1996).

T. Allen Lambert. "Zion Building: Writing About It and Doing It," FARMS Review, 9/2 (1997), 74-84.

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I love that version of Zion, and it makes my mouth water.

Another version of Zion can be found in Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion (FARMS/Deseret, 1989), which is Nibley's best-seller.

You might also want to study Gordon Wagner's 1977 doctoral dissertation at Cornell, "Consecration and Stewardship: A Socially Efficient System of Justice."

J. W. Lucas, and W. P. Woodworth, Working toward Zion (Aspen Books, 1996).

T. Allen Lambert. "Zion Building: Writing About It and Doing It," FARMS Review, 9/2 (1997), 74-84.

Party pooper! :P

Edited by teddyaware

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I love that version of Zion, and it makes my mouth water.

Another version of Zion can be found in Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion (FARMS/Deseret, 1989), which is Nibley's best-seller.

You might also want to study Gordon Wagner's 1977 doctoral dissertation at Cornell, "Consecration and Stewardship: A Socially Efficient System of Justice."

J. W. Lucas, and W. P. Woodworth, Working toward Zion (Aspen Books, 1996).

T. Allen Lambert. "Zion Building: Writing About It and Doing It," FARMS Review, 9/2 (1997), 74-84.

I was disappointed with Nibley's "Approaching Zion". Maybe it was because I had read "Brother Brigham Teaches the Saints" Right before. The Spirit was much stronger with that then with Approaching Zion. Brother Nibley's desciption of Zion wasn't really what I see Zion as.

Where we need to build Zion is in our families. Our families are the closest and easiest community to build Zion in. And if we can build Zion in our families, our wards will likewise become Zion places.

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Exactly what would we expect a Zion type community to be like? We spend a lot of time encouraging people to work for such a society, but what would it be like. Can we envision it in anything other than what it would not be like?

I would say pretty much like New Zealand... 8P

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It would not be like Liberals want the world to be: controlled by them for the better good of the whole. Zion does not control anybody with rules or laws. Zion allows those who do not want to be part of it to go away and play by themselves however they choose to do so. Liberals (a misapplication of the word if there ever was one!) want freedom to do and be whatever they want, but they want special laws to protect those liberties, meanwhile using as many laws as necessary to take away from others what Liberals disagree with.( I am going to start a new thread now on this topic.)

Good luck with that thread... I have had threads shut down after one or two posts with less overt political content that this.

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How does capitalism fit into Zion?

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I think the closest description of a Zion society can be found here:

Interesting, I ask for a description that isn't based on what it doesn't have, and what is the first description posted? What it doesn't have. I think this confirms my thinking that when we think of Zion we think in terms of the absence of certain things rather than a grasp of what it might actually be like. No wonder we are doing such a poor job of achieving it. Our concept of it is in terms of "no".

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Interesting, I ask for a description that isn't based on what it doesn't have, and what is the first description posted? What it doesn't have. I think this confirms my thinking that when we think of Zion we think in terms of the absence of certain things rather than a grasp of what it might actually be like. No wonder we are doing such a poor job of achieving it. Our concept of it is in terms of "no".

That is an interesting observations.

I think it would have no speed limit.

Perfect T-bone steaks.

The best spicy sauce chicken wings.

All the best action movie directors producing the best super hero movies eva, yo.

So there you have it...

Oh, an I would own a convertible lambo...

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I think it would have no speed limit.

With no possibility of accidents or injuries of course....no tickets either.

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With no possibility of accidents or injuries of course....no tickets either.

Of course... thanks for the clarification... i would add that accidents are possible, otherwise where is the thrill of risk... but nothing that can't be fixed easy enough.

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How does capitalism fit into Zion?

It doesn't fit or not fit. Economy is required, of some kind, or of diverse kinds. The secret ingredient to Zion's economy is that nobody is out for "number one", everyone is focused on everybody else as much as on themselves. That kind of charity makes cooperation easy, and "there are no poor among them"....

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Of course... thanks for the clarification... i would add that accidents are possible, otherwise where is the thrill of risk... but nothing that can't be fixed easy enough.

Speed for speed's sake is more than enough for me, don't need the looming possibility of harm or death hanging over me to make it fun, in fact that takes away from the pleasure for me.

I will grant you the possibility of accident as long as it doesn't happen to any bystanders but just those speeding along by choice. ;)

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snapback.pngQuesting Beast, on 18 April 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

It would not be like Liberals want the world to be: controlled by them for the better good of the whole. Zion does not control anybody with rules or laws. Zion allows those who do not want to be part of it to go away and play by themselves however they choose to do so. Liberals (a misapplication of the word if there ever was one!) want freedom to do and be whatever they want, but they want special laws to protect those liberties, meanwhile using as many laws as necessary to take away from others what Liberals disagree with.( I am going to start a new thread now on this topic.)

You: Good luck with that thread... I have had threads shut down after one or two posts with less overt political content that this.

Heh, no kidding. This IS a silly place, not "the right place". Even a post can't survive the heavy finger of propriety. What are they afraid of? The mingling of religion and politics is inseparable in the real world....

Edited by Questing Beast

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It doesn't fit or not fit. Economy is required, of some kind, or of diverse kinds. The secret ingredient to Zion's economy is that nobody is out for "number one", everyone is focused on everybody else as much as on themselves. That kind of charity makes cooperation easy, and "there are no poor among them"....

I suspect that it would need to be a society focused primarily on growing things oneself, or making things oneself and that large projects such as building a house or barn , etc. would be community collaboration and the economy would basically be barter based. Sort of like many of the indigenous cultures we spent so much time destroying. Family systems would be important because the would be the primary team relied upon in the society for production of the necessities of life. It would suddenly be that your hobbies, gardening, sewing, fishing, hunting, carpentry and do it yourself projects became your vocation rather than your avocation.

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Do you consider Zion to be an interim condition? That is, lesser to the society of the celestial kingdom? Or equatable to the celestial kingdom? In fact, WHEN do you consider that we would be living Zion?

I will state that I personally equate zion with the celestial kingdom and not an interim condition, but it seems the discussion is going in ways that I don't normally think, so I am just curious and trying to suss out where you're at with it. Anyone can answer this question.

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Interesting, I ask for a description that isn't based on what it doesn't have, and what is the first description posted? What it doesn't have. I think this confirms my thinking that when we think of Zion we think in terms of the absence of certain things rather than a grasp of what it might actually be like. No wonder we are doing such a poor job of achieving it. Our concept of it is in terms of "no".

Okay, that is God's description, I guess He is used to all those "thou shalt nots" since generally His children have been a disobedient lot. But for a more positive look how about this:
"And the Lord called his people ZION, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them." (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:18)
Oh I'm so sorry there is that nasty "no" again. Maybe it is beyond our carnal minds to comprehend unless we are filled with the spirit of God. I suspect it will be a time when Satan will be bound and we all will live the Celestial law. That is my best guess. Sorry for the negative answers but we live in a negative world.

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Heh, no kidding. This IS a silly place, not "the right place". Even a post can't survive the heavy finger of propriety. What are they afraid of? The mingling of religion and politics is inseparable in the real world....

I agree... as one who has more posts lock than left open.

But i enjoy the conversations and threads that do stay open.

Edited by Bikeemikey

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I suspect that it would need to be a society focused primarily on growing things oneself, or making things oneself and that large projects such as building a house or barn , etc. would be community collaboration and the economy would basically be barter based. Sort of like many of the indigenous cultures we spent so much time destroying. Family systems would be important because the would be the primary team relied upon in the society for production of the necessities of life. It would suddenly be that your hobbies, gardening, sewing, fishing, hunting, carpentry and do it yourself projects became your vocation rather than your avocation.

So we just dispense with technology? or the ability to mass produce? Why?

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So we just dispense with technology? or the ability to mass produce? Why?

I agree. Why dispense with the advancements that have brought the greatest increases in prosperity, standard of living, life expectancy, etc. etc?

Edited by go_utes01

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Okay, that is God's description, I guess He is used to all those "thou shalt nots" since generally His children have been a disobedient lot. But for a more positive look how about this:

Oh I'm so sorry there is that nasty "no" again. Maybe it is beyond our carnal minds to comprehend unless we are filled with the spirit of God. I suspect it will be a time when Satan will be bound and we all will live the Celestial law. That is my best guess. Sorry for the negative answers but we live in a negative world.

From what I understand, it will not be a time when Satan will be bound and we all live the Celestial law. In fact it, will be building Zion and living the Celestial law that will bind Satan.

And nothing is beyond our carnal minds that the Holy Spirit cannot reveal. Maybe we need to make a great effort of putting off the natural man and our carnal minds and humbling ourselves by yielding to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.

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So we just dispense with technology? or the ability to mass produce? Why?

That's one of the reasons I had such a hard time with Hugh Nibleys depiction of Zion in his book. It seemed like we were supposed to just ignore modern technology. God gave us this technology for a reason.

I also don't see the free market as inherently contrary to the principles of Zion. The free market, when used in righteousness, is just honest men and women trading goods and services to better one another and creating value and wealth by doing so. People get wealthy in the free market by providing good goods and services to one another.

Couple that with individuals and wards taking care of the needy amongst them, and you will see amazing blessings poured out upon the world. The Invisible hand of Divine providence factors into the free market, atleast if you look at Adam Smith.

In fact, looking at how Venture Capitalist endevours work, I think that Zion would likely work on the same type of system. Those with resources pool them together and use them to help people who are starting up businesses. Obviously the analogy isn't perfect. The problems in the system come when human flaws like pride, greed, covetousness, dishonesty, ect come into the system.

I think there are several keys to a Zion society:

1) Those who are members of the society are in it voluntarily. No one is compelled to be in Zion or live the laws of the Celestial Kingdom.

2) Those who are members labor to serve their fellow man, not themselves. The money will follow

3) Those who are members seek to be good stewards to their resources

4) Those who are members are united with one another in their actions.

5) Those who are memembers seek to live the Celestial law.

I heard a talk in a stake conference about Zion a long time ago. The speaker stated there are three key attributes to Zion: Unity, Purity, and Charity

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