David Bokovoy Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Dear Friends,Feeling that my comments over the last two weeks on apologetics and the BofA have not quite sparked enough controversy, I have posted another essay entitled "Holy Envy: What Mainstream Christians Can Teach Latter-day Saint Christians About the Atonement of Christ."With love,--DBhttp://www.withoutend.org/holy-envy-mainstream-christians-teach-latter-day-saint-christians-atonement-christ/ 3 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I agree with your essay I just wonder what you perceive the purpose of the of Book of Mormon to be if not an explanation of the atonement? is it just more fleshing out of the doctrine that is in the NT? Link to comment
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 But I already knew that. I guess my holy envy will have to stick to their lack of jello with vegetables in it at their activities. 3 Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the question, Duncan. According to its Title Page, the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach about Covenants and Christ. My understanding of this issue can be found here....http://maxwellinstit...es/?vol=3&id=71 Edited March 14, 2013 by David Bokovoy Link to comment
Popular Post Paloma Posted March 14, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted March 14, 2013 Dear Friends,Feeling that my comments over the last two weeks on apologetics and the BofA have not quite sparked enough controversy, I have posted another essay entitled "Holy Envy: What Mainstream Christians Can Teach Latter-day Saint Christians About the Atonement of Christ."With love,--DBhttp://www.withoutend.org/holy-envy-mainstream-christians-teach-latter-day-saint-christians-atonement-christ/As a mainstream Christian, I thank you David!I've had the sense that many mainstream Christian writers (e.g. C.S. Lewis; N.T. Wright; Alvin Plantinga; Alister McGrath; Peter Kreeft and others) are much appreciated by some LDS believers and perhaps especially the more academic types.It's easy to read and write about something we admire in another faith tradition without specifically recognizing the faith from which the work arises. I feel that recognition from you, and thank you for it.I'm reminded that it behooves me and all of us to recognize the inherent meaning and depth in the theology and beliefs of others. 5 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the question, Duncan. According to its Title Page, the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach about Covenants and Christ. My understanding of this issue can be found here....http://maxwellinstit...es/?vol=3&id=71Thank you! I LOVE the idea of covenants, I can participate in my own salvation, I am not depraved, a repentant sinner such as myself can make it to heaven and exaltationOne thing too about your essay is your point you make with the Timothy Keller quotation, it lines up with what Doctrine and Covenants Section 45:4-5 is talking about, rather then looking on us, look on him (Christ) whom we have looked upon and became a disciple through and are saved through his merits. Fascinating! Edited March 14, 2013 by Duncan 2 Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Thank you, Duncan. That's the exact verse that I use when teaching this idea to an LDS audience. It is a beautiful link. Edited March 14, 2013 by David Bokovoy 1 Link to comment
Buckeye Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Lovely article David. I especially appreciate the painting of the empty cross - a symbol I strongly identify with, but which I cannot wear in my ward. I guess you could call that a bit of "holy envy". Link to comment
Damien the Leper Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Buckeye, why can't you wear a cross in your ward? Link to comment
Buckeye Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Still too many members who feel it goes against church doctrine. I don't agree, but I avoid it to prevent dischord. 1 Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Still too many members who feel it goes against church doctrine. I don't agree, but I avoid it to prevent dischord.Just wear this along with it and you'll be fine 1 Link to comment
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Still too many members who feel it goes against church doctrine. I don't agree, but I avoid it to prevent dischord.You're a better person than I. I wear a necklace which holds a little etching of the Adinkra symbol for 'understanding', and ironically haven't particularly concerned myself about any discord it might cause. Heh. (By the way, everyone, am I supposed to feel ashamed of my colonialist cultural appropriation, or proud of my PC multiculturalism? I dunno, but I like my necklace.) Edited March 14, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Just wear this along with it and you'll be fineHow did you get that? It's supposed to be a secret to the unitiated. I'm peeved now. Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 How did you get that? It's supposed to be a secret to the unitiated. I'm peeved now.I'm a POEE pope. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 There is a big aversion to the cross in my neck of the woods. I mentioned wanting to wear one and got a snicker from a gal in my ward I go walking with. I have a very small one I bought that is very simple and pretty, and haven't got the nerve to wear it. My friends, neighbors and family would think I'd joined another church! Maybe Utah is different than the mission field where more converts abide. Looking forward to reading the paper David B. Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I'm a POEE pope.Using acronyms I don't understand isn't helping me. Drats! My tactic to get you to tell me what that is didn't work. Link to comment
Stone holm Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Sorry, its been my experience that few Mormons actually "get" the atonement anymore than most other Christians "get" the atonement. The proof of that is if you ask the question why in a series, you eventually get a thorough look of total bafflement and inability to express any understanding that makes any sense whatsoever. i don't see this article as being of much help. Although I do think it is possible to explain the Atonement using Mormon doctrine in fairly thorough detail, rarely, if ever, do you hear anyone ever doing so. That Mormon doctrine at least gives you the building blocks for an understanding, I have yet to find any other Christian faith which comes anywhere even close to providing as many of the building blocks. Unfortunately, some of the platitudes which we frequently pass off as an understanding are ghastly in their implications which is what drives many away shaking their heads like they have just run into a bunch of people let loose from the insane asylum.Here are at least some of the why questions -- I believe Mormonism provides some of the answers, but will let you ponder whether any of the other Christian religions do1) Why would the sacrifice of one being in any logical way pay the debt of another?2) Why would a loving Father create rules for a plan which required the grizzly murder of his Only Begotten as a requirement to bless his other children?3) What is it about Christ's sacrifice that paves the way for the massive benefits to his brethern? Link to comment
wenglund Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 There is a big aversion to the cross in my neck of the woods. I mentioned wanting to wear one and got a snicker from a gal in my ward I go walking with. I have a very small one I bought that is very simple and pretty, and haven't got the nerve to wear it. My friends, neighbors and family would think I'd joined another church! Maybe Utah is different than the mission field where more converts abide. Looking forward to reading the paper David B.I figured that if there was a complaint about members of the Church, that you would show up to pitch in. You didn't disappoint.Thanks, -Wade Englund- Link to comment
Tacenda Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I figured that if there was a complaint about members of the Church, that you would show up to pitch in. You didn't disappoint.Thanks, -Wade Englund-If that's the only way I get attention here, that's what I do. 1 Link to comment
Stone holm Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 If that's the only way I get attention here, that's what I do. Hm, is it really worth responding? Link to comment
wenglund Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Sorry, its been my experience that few Mormons actually "get" the atonement anymore than most other Christians "get" the atonement. The proof of that is if you ask the question why in a series, you eventually get a thorough look of total bafflement and inability to express any understanding that makes any sense whatsoever. i don't see this article as being of much help. Although I do think it is possible to explain the Atonement using Mormon doctrine in fairly thorough detail, rarely, if ever, do you hear anyone ever doing so. That Mormon doctrine at least gives you the building blocks for an understanding, I have yet to find any other Christian faith which comes anywhere even close to providing as many of the building blocks. Unfortunately, some of the platitudes which we frequently pass off as an understanding are ghastly in their implications which is what drives many away shaking their heads like they have just run into a bunch of people let loose from the insane asylum.Here are at least some of the why questions -- I believe Mormonism provides some of the answers, but will let you ponder whether any of the other Christian religions do1) Why would the sacrifice of one being in any logical way pay the debt of another?2) Why would a loving Father create rules for a plan which required the grizzly murder of his Only Begotten as a requirement to bless his other children?3) What is it about Christ's sacrifice that paves the way for the massive benefits to his brethern?Perhaps the reason you are getting baffled looks is because members may be scratching their head in puzzlement as to why you are posing relatively fruitless and airy philosophical questions when it seems obvious to them that true enlightenment about the atonement is derived from coming unto Christ, living the gospel, and thereby becoming like him.Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited March 14, 2013 by wenglund Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 1) Why would the sacrifice of one being in any logical way pay the debt of another?It provided what was lacking to satisfy justice.2) Why would a loving Father create rules for a plan which required the grizzly murder of his Only Begotten as a requirement to bless his other children?The grizzly murder wasn't a part of the plan. It's just that our Father knew it would happen.3) What is it about Christ's sacrifice that paves the way for the massive benefits to his brethern?It provides what we lack to be able to access those benefis. 2 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+faith+of+a+child&mid=662E6F39B04A28689FB6662E6F39B04A28689FB6&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1Grab a hanky, this one's a tearjerker.... Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) Still too many members who feel it goes against church doctrine. I don't agree, but I avoid it to prevent dischord.Hehehe....I didn't.....On my mission an investigator/convert gave us these crosses for a gift. It had an angel in front of it praying and it reminding me of the scripture about having your own cross to bear. That thing was hanging on my wall till the day I left the mission (it's not in my closet in another state). The most I got comments-wise were on cleaning checks or new companions. None of them were condemnatory; mostly just surprise.But then again, I also enjoy pushing silly boundaries that are folk based rather than doctrinally sound. I don't wear a cross mainly because I don't want to. I've chosen what symbolic references I maintain and it's just not one of them...it just doesn't have the same sacred feel and reminder to me that other symbols do. I don't know it could still be a little bit from my bad experience with a few (at the time it felt like many) adamant Christians It's really dumb that that still has some effect, years later...but it does. Honestly from my experience, if you are doing what you are supposed to and hold a firm faith, no one really cares. And those that do....meh....what are they going to do anyways? With luv,BD Edited March 15, 2013 by BlueDreams Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I want a Celtic Cross in my pasture carved with scenes from the Book of Mormon. (Oh, I want a pasture too.) 1 Link to comment
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