Technology And The Saint Impressarios, Or Will Internet Make Or Break Religion

[volgadon]

On another thread Kerry Shirts made the following statement.

My honest suggestion? It won't matter because, of course, I ain't in downtown S.L.C. I think this kind of stuff needs to be drummed into us in a steady beat in all three church meetings for the next 50 years like the former pap and pablum has been. ONLY when the leadership decides to honestly enlighten us instead of dogmatize things to boring death with this "true doctrine" stance will they begin to have an enlightened people. This is the age of information, and every single religion on our planet is in the process (or should be if it wants to literally survive) of recognizing that the pap and pablum now has to honestly give way to real information, real scholarship, and real understanding. The internet will either make or break religion. At this point, I don't see religion having much of an easy time of it since now everything is on the table for all to see anytime they want to. There is no longer control of the press where a church can give only the information they think is good for the members. Now all of it gets incorporated and understood. Even if the history hurts, even such an one as Boyd K. Packer has no choice but change his tune and change his attitude about history, doctrine, and truth and reality. The internet is vastly more effective at getting information to people than God or His Holy Spirit ever dreamed of. Call it what you want, I am truly serious. Can't remember which atheist I read recently (I've been over loading reading atheists, scientists, Relativity, Quantum Physics, Mathematics) but the sentiment is serious, deadly serious. If the Holy Spirit HAD been doing its job as described in scripture, there would be no problems with all this information coming out. Sure it doesn't sound very nice about God or the Spirit, but it's more important than nice, its factual. All this information which none of the churches could have possibly imagined hitting us all over the heads has completely and totally changed the entire picture and importance of theology. Nothing, and I mean nothing can be swept under the rug now. It's more totally open than was even possible to imagine when I was just a kid lo those few short years ago. The churches as well as every organization simply has to deal with it. It will be more than of passing interest to see just how they go about it, and which ones, if any, will even succeed.

I have some strong reservations, and had briefly mentioned a few.

A bit overbold a claim. The internet certainly provides many challenges, but it is also a powerful tool for spreading and consolidating religion. Religions have often been amongst the pioneers of such approaches, something which tends to be overlooked in technological and atheist discourse.

If anything, the internet makes "pap and pablum" more prevalent and accessible. Look at wikipedia. I can almost gaurantee that the easier it is to find a quick answer, so much the fewer the people looking beyond it will be.

Will the internet really make or break religion?

I grew up in Israel in a town with a high percentage of Moroccan Jews. During the 80s and 90s there was a massive upsurge in the popularity of Moroccan saints, tzaddikim (sing. tzaddik, also known affectionately as baba). Very similar to Muslim marabouts, these saints could prognosticate the future, heal illness and disease, and provide blessings such as children and prosperity. Quite frequently they were also rabbis renouned for their piety and learning.This charisma was considered hereditary, being passed on to children through zechut avot, merit of the fathers. In practical terms this merit meant not only the saint's charisma, but also the material support that Jews in the area were expected to provide for members of the family. As a passage in the Babylonian Talmud, t. Hulin 7b, has it, "Tzaddikim are greater after their deaths than during their lifetime." Not only did this shape the legends in which the tzaddikim predict, and to a large extent control, the events around their death, it also meant that they performed even greater miracles after death than when alive. A celebration, hillula, is held every year on the anniversary of a tzaddik's death, and people flock from near and far to venerate the saint's grave. They pettition him for success and health, and pettitions are granted. Tzaddikim are also said to appear to their followers in dreams, providing counsel and instruction. The mass immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel in the 50s and 60s was traumatic for them in many ways, not least was being forced to leave behind the graves of tzaddikim.

The Israeli scholar Yoram Bilu documented a phenomenon in which a person claimed that a departed saint (such as R. David u-Moshe) appeared to them in a dream, instructed that the person construct in their home a shrine in the saint's honour for people to venerate during the hillula. This person, termed by Bilu a saint impresario, in order to spread news of the miracle used any technological means available. Word of mouth was simply insufficient.

The next stage in this story involves R. Yisrael Abuhatzeira (the Baba Sali), scion of the most illustrious Jewish family in Morocco. The Baba Sali, known for his learning, asceticism, and piety, rarely left his home in Netivot in the south of Israel, prefering to study in seclusion. He did however perform frequent healings by blessing bottles of water and such. After the Baba Sali's death, his sons inherited his mantle.

So far so good.

The interesting twist is his son, the Baba Baruch. Before his father's death, the Baba Baruch was the deputy mayor of Ashkelon, but was jailed for taking bribes (and other sundry types of corruption), and also carried on an adulterous affair. In order to cement his position as his father's heir, the Baba Baruch embarked on an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at enshrining the Baba Sali's figure in the public imagination. An imposing shrine was built in a Maghrebi style, setting it apart from everything else in town. The hillula was advertised in flyers, newspapers, radio, and TV (back in the days of a single channel). Testimonials of miraculous healings were gathered and circulated again through mass media outlets. The press was invited to cover every hillula. Politicians, too, flocked to the shrine, the Baba Baruch showing himself to be a powerful and adept political influence. Portraits of the saint appeared in all sorts of formats. One of the most common was a small card with his portrait and a blessing for business prosperity. In my memory it seemed like every store in the 90s had one. Audio cassettes were cheaply produced and distributed containing stories praising the tzaddik. Every action of the Baba Sali's was portrayed as cosmically significant. Nothing was considered too trivial. A typical example is how the Baba Sali used the Holy Spirit to show workers remodelling his home where to drill in the wall as it was too thick and they had spent hours working in vain. Another example is how the Baba Sali toox a taxi somewhere but had the driver wait by the side of the road for a very long time. The driver was perplexed at first, but then a bus full of religious schoolkids drove by, and the driver realised that the Baba Sali saw all of that through the Holy Spirit and didn't wish to delay the bus as they would have missed their scheduled prayers. Years later, when youtube appeared, this hagiography was made available online. I enclose a link to one of them, though it is in Hebrew.

The point of all these different methods was to make sure that the Baba Sali's name was ever present in the Israeli consciousness, culture, and discourse. They also encouraged their followers to make generous monetary donations to the family. The Baba Baruch himself donned his father's Morococcan robes. His brothers did likewise. He then expanded the complex at his father's shrine, adding several religious schools. Many outlets for laundering money were also created.

A third step in this story is the appearance of a rival and usurper, the X-ray (Roentgen) of Netivot- R. Yaakov Ifargan. Ifargan was nicknamed the X-ray due to claims of his remarkable ability to diagnose illness by sight alone. Ifargan faced an interesting challenge. His family was not considered anything fancy, and he was rather well-known before claiming to be a mystical healer. Ifargan appropriated the Baba Baruch's marketing approach, and set to create an illustrious reputation for his father, the Baba Shalom. A backstory of miracleworking in Morocco was introduced, and it was claimed that his father was exceptionally humble, so kept out of the public view in Israel. It was also purported that he worked as an amulet writer in the Baba Sali's court. None of these claims seem to have a basis in fact, yet are widely believed among Ifargan's (and his siblings') many adherents. Much to the Baba Sali's chagrin, Ifargan then built a large shrine to his father not far from the Baba Sali's shrine! When Ifargan started holding a rival hillula for the Baba Sali, the Bab Baruch sued, and lost. Ifargan made sure the media was present at each hillula, and also at additional events. Newspaper articles were commisioned on his powers. He proved himself to be a powerful political presence, if not more so than his controversial rival, and now also runs charities and schools, like the Abuhatzeiras. It could even be said that Ifargan's star is ascendent over the Baba Baruch's. When the internet came along, his presence too was made felt there.

The last stage I wish to mention involves Yoram Bilu himself. The professor wrote a book, "Without Bounds," dealing with the life and death of R. Yaakov Wazana, a Jewish Moroccan healer and "shaman" who died under tragic circumstances in 1952. Bilu conducted interviews in the 1980s with Wazana's friends and relatives in Israel in order to gather material on Wazana, who was remarkable for the degree of his inegration into the demonic world of Muslim healers. After the book was published in the 90s and generated a media storm, Bilu was contacted by a Moroccan barber from Beersheva who claimed that Wazana appeared in a dream, instructing him to create a shrine in his honour. Bilu noted the clever use the charismatic impresario made of technology such as tape recorders and tv cameras in order to spread both the fame of Wazana (and rehabilitate his reputation), and transform himself into Wazana's spiritual heir capable of weilding the same healing powers. The impresario created a media event for the unveiling of the newly-recovered sacred book that Wazana used for healing, though the book was obviously not at all like the ones Wazana used. That this was documented in Bilu's book dettered no one.

In 2010, Amnon Levy, host of the famous investigative show on Israeli TV, "Shomer Masach," filmed an episode revealing the unsavoury side to what is termed the "baba industry," including most of the information listed above. It also discussed the Baba Baruch's brother, the Baba Eliezer, who became known as the Cursing Baba after he cursed the daughter of a man who withheld a sizeable donation. The daughter subsequently died.

http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=732467

The show had high ratings, it is easily accesible for free on the internet, yet hundreds of thousands still flock to the Ifargan and Abuhatzeira hillulot each year! What is more, the Baba Eliezer, who was stabbed to death by a disgruntled and mentally-ill devotee, was still celebrated as a tzaddik. The unsavoury information can be found on the internet easily, by a simple google search. How come it hasn't had much of an effect? The answer must be sought in factors separate from technology itself.

[CV75]

Thank you! This is why I also think the users of the Internet make or break the Internet... as a proper vehicle for religion.

[volgadon]

Thank you! This is why I also think the users of the Internet make or break the Internet... as a proper vehicle for religion.

Great way of putting it.

[Damien the Leper]

Hmmm...food for thought, Volg. Thank you, sir.

[volgadon]

Hmmm...food for thought, Volg. Thank you, sir.

You're welcome. I'm not trying to provide answers as much as I'm seeking to suggest questions that should be asked.

If you couldn't tell, I'm not much of a believer in technological determinism. There is no silver bullet, and there are no magic keys.

[Hamba Tuhan]

If you couldn't tell, I'm not much of a believer in technological determinism.

At its simplest level, people who are seem to function under the assumption that religious belief is a consequence of ignorance.

[Damien the Leper]

At its simplest level, people who are seem to function under the assumption that religious belief is a consequence of ignorance.

<cough> Dawkins <cough>

[volgadon]

At its simplest level, people who are seem to function under the assumption that religious belief is a consequence of ignorance.

Agreed. It seems that some of the most effective users of new technologies are those religious leaders and groups who would be considered most ignorant and fanatical by "enlightened" observers and proponents of scientism. Technology is a tool that can be used apart from any particular ideological parcel that technological determinists may embrace.

[The Nehor]

I agree there is too much pablum in the church but I disagree with the prescribed cure.

[thesometimesaint]

Technology CAN be part of the solution. However as the computer geeks say. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Ahab]

The internet is a really nice tool, but all it really provides is ideas and images from people, and people are either right or wrong whether or not they use the internet as their tool of choice to share their ideas and images.

Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it is true, ya know, so we still need some way to determine when something is true.

Anybody got any ideas or images to share about how we can know what is true when we hear it, or see it?

I know who to trust, and I thank God for all of the help he has given and will continue to give me.

[The Nehor]

The internet has given conspiracy theorists, pedophiles, UFO spotters, sunlight eaters, healthy obesity nuts, and others to gather together and reinforce their delusions that their way of thinking/life has merit. Those who imagine that the internet will end religion should first see if it ends outright quackery. Hint: It does not.

[semlogo]

I think it will change religion, not end it.

[thesometimesaint]

The internet is a really nice tool, but all it really provides is ideas and images from people, and people are either right or wrong whether or not they use the internet as their tool of choice to share their ideas and images.

Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it is true, ya know, so we still need some way to determine when something is true.

Anybody got any ideas or images to share about how we can know what is true when we hear it, or see it?

I know who to trust, and I thank God for all of the help he has given and will continue to give me.

There are two basic methods. Both equally valid within their own sphere, but may or may not be valid in the other.

1. The science route

2. Ask God.

[Ahab]

I think it will change religion, not end it.

I agree, either for the better or worse. I think it probably has about the same potential to do either.

Religion (of the kind that involves any God) is basically all about the way we worship God, and we way we worship God is affected by the information we have which can then motivate us to either move closer or further from God. If we rely on false information from people about God we would probably move further and further from God, based on our belief in what those people told us about God, but true information from people about God can also help us to move closer and closer to God, even if based in only our beliefs from those people with no personal testimony of our own from God to back it up.

It's not like we live in a bubble without any interactions with people other than God in our lives, and the interactions we have can either help us or prevent us from getting as close to God as we possibly can.

[Ahab]

There are two basic methods. Both equally valid within their own sphere, but may or may not be valid in the other.

1. The science route

2. Ask God.

You might as well add other names too, if you're going to single someone out as if he should be treated differently than any other witness. Or you could just say that you can do scientific research without getting any information from any witnesses, whatsoever, while using only inanimate objects when doing your research.

Asking God is basically like asking anyone else for their ideas or input, except for the fact that God is the best witness you can possibly have.

[ALarson]

We just had the full time missionaries over for dinner this last week. They both said that they are frustrated with their prospects looking up info on the internet. I do believe it has changed the missionary experience.

Who is going to join a church that is such a complete lifestyle change (for many) without at least doing a google search?

I hope they are preparing the missionaries to counteract the sensational anti stuff that is readily available when doing this search. Of course an investigator is going to be curious enough to read what's on the internet.

[thesometimesaint]

Ahab:

I put no limits on what/whom that people assume that God is. It is the truth that matter's regardless of source.

[Ahab]

We just had the full time missionaries over for dinner this last week. They both said that they are frustrated with their prospects looking up info on the internet. I do believe it has changed the missionary experience.

Who is going to join a church that is such a complete lifestyle change (for many) without at least doing a google search?

I hope they are preparing the missionaries to counteract the sensational anti stuff that is readily available when doing this search. Of course an investigator is going to be curious enough to read what's on the internet.

As long as the investigator remains an investigator, all the research they do is going to help them.

The internet wasn't used as much when I was an investigator, but these days I'd probably use it, as well, and all it would lead me to is some questions about this or that. I don't just automatically believe what I read or see on the internet. I'd be saying things like:

What about this... ?

... or that?

... you mean to tell me you really believe this... ?

... and this... ?

... You're serious ?!?!?

... from God, huh. Where can I find what God says on the internet?

... but this guy said this... and this... and this... How does all that fit in the picture?

... from God, huh. Okay. I guess I'll be letting you know what I find out, from God.

[thesometimesaint]

We just had the full time missionaries over for dinner this last week. They both said that they are frustrated with their prospects looking up info on the internet. I do believe it has changed the missionary experience.

Who is going to join a church that is such a complete lifestyle change (for many) without at least doing a google search?

I hope they are preparing the missionaries to counteract the sensational anti stuff that is readily available when doing this search. Of course an investigator is going to be curious enough to read what's on the internet.

Availability isn't a predictor of accuracy. IE; If only one person in the whole world knew the earth is essentially round, it wouldn't make it any less accurate.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

GREAT discussion yous guys!

[BCSpace]

While opposition surely hardens people against the Church, it has also produced more converts. So I think at best, the internet merely sharpens and enhances the parable of the sower but doesn't affect any percentages of who lies on stony ground.

[cinepro]

As I've said before, Scientology is much weirder and less true than the LDS Church. If any major religion is going to get taken down by the internet and skepticism, it is Scientology.

As long as they're still around, we have nothing to worry about.

[ALarson]

As long as the investigator remains an investigator, all the research they do is going to help them.

The internet wasn't used as much when I was an investigator, but these days I'd probably use it, as well, and all it would lead me to is some questions about this or that. I don't just automatically believe what I read or see on the internet. I'd be saying things like:

What about this... ?

... or that?

... you mean to tell me you really believe this... ?

... and this... ?

... You're serious ?!?!?

... from God, huh. Where can I find what God says on the internet?

... but this guy said this... and this... and this... How does all that fit in the picture?

... from God, huh. Okay. I guess I'll be letting you know what I find out, from God.

I agree.

But from what I could see, these missionaries were not prepared to answer some of the tough questions regarding the information investigators were finding online.

The two things they said were most commonly brought up (in their experience) was the different versions of the first vision and polygamy/polyandry. Both of these missionaries told us they'd never heard anything about these until they came out into the mission field (minus polygamy of course, but they did not know that Joseph Smith had so many plural wives and so on).

I'm just saying that they should be better prepared now that this information is so readily available online. Who should prepare them is the question, I guess. They just seemed to really not know how to answer many of the questions investigators were asking.

[Ahab]

I'm just saying that they should be better prepared now that this information is so readily available online.

Ah, I see. I agree with that point. I was just saying what i know they should be saying when responding to those questions.

They're out there to direct people to God, and they've been told that is their purpose on a mission. They don't need to have all the answers to all questions in their own mind while just waiting for someone to ask them a question. They just need to focus on getting people to think they should be asking God for the answers they need in their lives.

That's why we don't send only scholars out there. That's why a 19 year old male can do the job they should be doing. That's why women can do it, too, as well as any other member of the Church. All we're supposed to focus on is getting people to go to God for all of their answers, as they build (or rebuild) their own relationship with him through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Who should prepare them is the question, I guess. They just seemed to really not know how to answer many of the questions investigators were asking.

That's too bad. I'm pretty sure the MTC still focuses on teaching the elders and sisters to focus on teaching them about how to tell others that we all need faith from God as God gives us our answers, including how the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are involved in the process. Once they teach people that they're then supposed to teach them they need to repent from their sins once God helps them know what their sins are, as well as doing all of the good things they can do, including some ordinances that are necessary for their salvation.

Not much in that regard is going to change, because the system is perfect. Even the gates of Hell can't stop someone from entering into the kingdom of God, as long as they have the testimony of Jesus.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Ahab