John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction

[rongo]

Moreover, there is no conclusive proof that Oliver was using a divining rod in his attempt to translate the Book of Mormon, or that he even possessed such an instrument (see this link).

Incidentally, are you aware of Royal Skousen's thoughts on the 26 word section in Alma, the only section where Joseph Smith's handwriting is found in the original manuscript? He speculates (based also on timing and schedules) that this might be the actual attempt in question, and that Joseph Smith had to step in and finish the thought when he faltered, like Peter walking on water but faltering).

[robuchan]

Although I think it's all but certain he did, on both counts. Doesn't bother me at all --- I wish I had a divining rod!

Have you ever read Richard L. Anderson's "The Mature Joseph Smith and Treasure Searching?"

https://byustudies.b...aspx?title=5659

It goes into great depth on this, as well as others of the Brethren who had divining rods, and their recorded fulfilled prophecies in their journals. Particularly striking was Heber C. Kimball, who "inquired through the rod" at times of crisis, like the Martyrdom or the invasion during the Utah War.

Maybe it shouldn't bother me, either. But the point I'm trying to make to KC and anyone else who wants to insult me rather than empathize with me that I never knew any of these things as an active LDS is that you're arrogant, mean, and wrong for doing it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Incidentally, are you aware of Royal Skousen's thoughts on the 26 word section in Alma, the only section where Joseph Smith's handwriting is found in the original manuscript? He speculates (based also on timing and schedules) that this might be the actual attempt in question, and that Joseph Smith had to step in and finish the thought when he faltered, like Peter walking on water but faltering).

I'm aware of that theory. But according to Brant Gardner, Skousen believes the opposite. Brant wrote on this board, back in December 2011:

Skousen has looked at that passage. His opinion, based on where it begins and ends, is that Oliver had to leave and for some reason Joseph wanted to get something down. Based on the context, Skousen didn't believe it was a natural beginning point for a shift in translator. Of course, all is speculation, but when it comes to what we see on the original, Skousen is our best source.

[Calm]

Maybe it shouldn't bother me, either. But the point I'm trying to make to KC and anyone else who wants to insult me rather than empathize with me that I never knew any of these things as an active LDS is that you're arrogant, mean, and wrong for doing it.

It's not that one didn't know these things that is an issue, it is how one reacted when one found out one didn't know them. People have said this over and over, I don't know how much clearer they can be about it. It's not a level of knowledge, it is how one reacts to learning new things...simply put, does learning itself become a positive or negative experience?

Does it help if I say I am very sorry you missed out on knowing these things when you were younger if you were interested in this kind of stuff? I had horrible seminary teachers, was bored out of my skull at YW and SS. They were teaching me how to do makeup for goodness' sakes. I did luck out in having parents that collected books though and since it was my job to dust the living room bookshelves, I became familiar with them young and began to read them in my teens. But my time at BYU was wasted because it just didn't occur to me to look for more material on top of my regular studies...though I did find the literature collection and managed to work my way through Agatha Christie's books from A to Z.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to be perpetual students if they love learning like I do. That is my goal in life, I am a career student.

Edited February 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[rongo]

Maybe it shouldn't bother me, either. But the point I'm trying to make to KC and anyone else who wants to insult me rather than empathize with me that I never knew any of these things as an active LDS is that you're arrogant, mean, and wrong for doing it.

Anecdotally, I was aware of many of these and other issues as a teenager. But both sides of my family are very eclectic and had intricate and erudite discussions of complex Church history issues. My uncle was relieved to learn a few months ago that I had secured and taken care of my grandpa's vast library, and I remember having arguments/discussions where people would go to the library and get sources to back them up. Many bishops, stake presidents, and mission presidents among them.

This doesn't mean that I judge you as being XYZ because your background didn't look like this. It does mean that people like Kevin Christensen and I have to try to understand and emphathize. We don't get the anger and bitterness because we never expected it to be provided by the Church in the first place. It came from family and upbringing.

[Scott Lloyd]

It's not that one didn't know these things that is an issue, it is how one reacted when one found out one didn't know them. People have said this over and over, I don't know how much clearer they can be about it. It's not a level of knowledge, it is how one reacts to learning new things...simply put, does learning itself become a positive or negative experience?

Does it help if I say I am very sorry you missed out on knowing these things when you were younger if you were interested in this kind of stuff? I had horrible seminary teachers, was bored out of my skull at YW and SS. I did luck out in having parents that collected books though and since it was my job to dust the living room bookshelves, I became familiar with them young and began to read them in my teens. But my time at BYU was wasted because it just didn't occur to me to look for more material on top of my regular studies...though I did find the literature collection and managed to work my way through Agatha Christie's books from A to Z.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to be perpetual students if they love learning like I do. That is my goal in life, I am a career student.

I think Allen Wyatt made an excellent post (#613) about how the Church's higher priority is to teach the gospel, not teach history; that history is an instrument for illuminating gospel truths, not the other way around. It's not that the Church hides history; rather the Church does not see the teaching of history as its primary role. That task is largely left to others to accomplish, though the Church has done some admirable things in this respect, especially recently with the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Even that endeavor, though, has not been accomplished solely by the Church. For one thing, it has been funded by the Larry H. Miller family.

[Libs]

No, I listened to Dehlin's podcast, and I don't think it is the one he was referring to. It is too recent to fit the time frame.

Elder Holland has given a couple of bold and emphatic conference addresses affirming LDS orthodoxy. I think it must have been one of those that bothered John Dehlin, since he rejects so much of the orthodoxy and, I gather, would prefer to see it fade away.

Ah, okay...that couldn't be the one, then. John didn't mention which Apostle he spoke with (purposely, I assume), so I'm not even sure it was Elder Holland, he was talking about.

Except for the supposition that this is the talk John was referring to, I agree with you. I don't believe it's a contradiction either. I brought it up lest there be some who think we are living in some sort of nebulous, I'm-OK-You're-OK new age with regard to what is accepted in the Church as belief.

While the Church welcomes those who are struggling, it is not going to de-emphasize its core teachings as a price for having them remain in the fold. It is vain to hope otherwise.

Yeah, I know that you are right about this. But, I have to say, compared to some other churches I have visited, in the last three years, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is already a bit "new agey". It is one of the things I, rather, liked about it.

That's a choice only you can make. I hope you come back, though.

Thank you.

[Libs]

Someone mentioned, way back on the thread, that they would prefer reading a manuscript, of John Dehlin's interview, over the audio. I ran across this "summation" of the interview, on Facebook, so thought I would post it here, in case anyone was still interested. It is not the entire interview, but it does give the highlights.

http://www.wheatandt...oning-morality/

Edited February 9, 2013 by Libs

[mfbukowski]

Thirty-nine.

I had already been working at the Church News for nine years. I was a former subscriber to Sunstone. There was a stack of back issues on our shelves in the office that I perused on occasion. I never, before or since, have had the impression that I was forbidden to look at it.

Dang.

You're just no fun at all.

[mfbukowski]

Interesting. I experienced a completely different Mormon church than you.

Count me into that too- I can't imagine what you are saying. I joined the church in 1979 at the age of 31 so you can do the math yourself. When I first got baptized I moved to Salt Lake, went to Deseret Book where they sold Sunstone and all the other periodicals and read all I could find cover to cover. There were no guards preventing me from buying them If they generated any questions, I figured out the answers.

As you can see, here I am, and I haven't exactly been excommunicated yet even though some think my views are not "mainstream" though they are to me. I have had, and still do have leadership positions including confidential assignments from my stake president who knows me very well.

[Daniel Peterson]

That's a choice only you can make. I hope you come back, though.

I've been reading elsewhere about how outraged I am that somebody might come back to the Church, so, lest those people look too foolish, I think I need to chime in here and express my hope that you don't come back, that your lawn die, that your transmission fall apart, that your goldfish drown, and that your section of the United States drop into the sea.

[Libs]

LOL!

So very typical of you Dr. Peterson.

And, I should add, you are directly responsible for my not coming back. So there.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Libs

[Tacenda]

Count me into that too- I can't imagine what you are saying. I joined the church in 1979 at the age of 31 so you can do the math yourself. When I first got baptized I moved to Salt Lake, went to Deseret Book where they sold Sunstone and all the other periodicals and read all I could find cover to cover. There were no guards preventing me from buying them If they generated any questions, I figured out the answers.

As you can see, here I am, and I haven't exactly been excommunicated yet even though some think my views are not "mainstream" though they are to me. I have had, and still do have leadership positions including confidential assignments from my stake president who knows me very well.

MFB, I had pictured you being in your 30's! You're a very young & hip acting person. Anyway back to a question. Can one walk into a Deseret Bookstore now and pick up some Sunstone periodicals? Edited February 9, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Someone mentioned, way back on the thread, that they would prefer reading a manuscript, of John Dehlin's interview, over the audio. I ran across this "summation" of the interview, on Facebook, so thought I would post it here, in case anyone was still interested. It is not the entire interview, but it does give the highlights.

http://www.wheatandt...oning-morality/

Thanks, I appreciate that and if I had points left for today, I would become your sycophant.

[Calm]

Can one walk into a Deseret Bookstore now and pick up some Sunstone periodicals?

I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't but I have been in some DB stores that had only very few FARMS published books. Deseretbooks these days seem very limited in the product they carry, I don't even bother to read their catalogues anymore, a third of the products are knickknacks, a third are fiction and a third are inspirational. It is one of the reason why FAIR has an online bookstore.

[mfbukowski]

There are some things the church has been manipulative about, for example the picture of Joseph and Oliver studying with the plates on the table. The encouragement of believing Joseph's marriages were spiritual in nature only. I could think real hard and give you a list if you want. Changing in wording in Book of Commandments to alter original meaning. Stuff like that.

But really, I'm not one of those guys blasting the church for this. I understand. I don't agree, but I understand. And I'm not demanding an apology from the church or for it to change or whatever.

What I don't like is for people to point their finger at me and tell me why I'm lazy or at fault for not knowing any of this stuff until late in life and the internet age. It's arrogant, unempathetic, unfair, and flat out wrong. There is no reason why I as a good LDS, living and studying my religion should have known and understood any of these issues. KC tells me I should have been reading Dialogue and Sunstone. Well I want to BYU at a time when people got excommunicated for publishing in Sunstone and it was clearly taught that we should stay away from this kind of material.

I read the same stuff and it didn't bother me at all. I was grateful to have found a way to make sense out of God existing at all after giving up on the whole idea of Neoplatonism.

Who cared how many wives Brigham or Joseph had? I had never worried about Bertrand Russell's biography- what did that have to do with his philosophy?

Inspiration is inspiration. If I know that God chose Joseph, who's business is it but Joseph's and God's? Their conversation was not on a party line with me included.

[mfbukowski]

MFB, I had pictured you being in your 30's! You're a very young & hip acting person. Anyway back to a question. Can one walk into a Deseret Bookstore now and pick up some Sunstone periodicals?

Well once a hipster always a hipster even though I now have a steel hip, I am just a cool dude.

I will have to make my kids read that post so they know at least one person in the world thinks I am not a fuddy-duddy.

I don't know about Deseret Book because we only have one in So Cal and it is too far away for me to bother to drive there on a regular basis- I might get there once every couple of years when I have a random reason to get into their neck of the woods.

[Libs]

Thanks, I appreciate that and if I had points left for today, I would become your sycophant.

Haha! I'll give you a point, instead. I've never had my own personal sycophant!

[Calm]

Haha! I'll give you a point, instead. I've never had my own personal sycophant!

Actually, I think I gave you a couple of points earlier today so you can put me on your list of fawners.

[Libs]

Actually, I think I gave you a couple of points earlier today so you can put me on your list of fawners.

[Calm]

Edited February 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[Libs]

Heehee!

[Calm]

I am working my way up to minion.

[ERayR]

I am working my way up to minion.

I'm the court jester.

[Calm]

I'm the court jester.