Youtubes Of The First Vision And A Question

[Tacenda]

[media=]

There is a post on another board that says this....

"It's interesting that you say "all the other people from Joseph's own time and region that sound so suspiciously similar", they actually bring that up at one point trying to debate Fawn Brodie's point that his vision was not found in any newspaper. They said his experience was not unusual for that time. I thought that was one of the biggest statements in the video that could make people go, what?."

So for the question, were many receiving visions as Fawn Brodie alludes?

Still very good that we are coming forth with truth about multiple accounts. I think it started with the "The Joseph Smith Paper's Project". If it starts anyone on a faith crisis maybe their testimony needed to be strengthened.

Note: I haven't listened to all of them maybe they'll answer my question! But thought some here might enjoy these Youtubes.

ETA: Oops, sorry, Fawn didn't allude to other's visions, I misread that. She questioned why it wasn't in the newspaper!

Edited January 26, 2013 by Tacenda

[Sky]

Other people may have had visions, but as far as I know, none on the scale of what Joseph Smith experienced. Nearly 200 years later, you and I, and the Church itself, are the beneficiaries and products of that vision.

I've never had an issue with multiple accounts of the First Vision. It could simply mean that he shared different aspects of it at different times with different people. The account that we have in Joseph Smith-History in the Pearl of Great Price is probably a fairly condensed account of what happened. It probably doesn't include everything that occurred during that vision.

If I had a vision where the Father and the Son talked to me, I would probably be extremely cautious about who to tell and what I should say and how to go about it. It appears, from the accounts, that many people treated it with skepticism, just like they do now.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Sky

[daz2]

Here is just one article on the visionary world in which Joseph Smith lived. https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6465 Joseph's own father received a number of visions/dreams (at least seven according to his wife--one of the visions was somewhat similar to the tree of life in the BofM), so when he told son Joseph that his vision of Moroni was of God, Joseph Sr was not speaking like a 21st century skeptic but speaking as someone who had received marvelous visions. http://saintswithouthalos.com/n/visions_js_sr.phtml As a missionary in Mexico almost 40 years ago, I met many people who claimed to have seen angels or Jesus (I cannot recall whether anyone claimed to have seen God the Father). Professor Bushman argues that the preacher with whom Joseph first shared his experience rejected the story "not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story but because of its familiarity. Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions." http://www.mormonismi.net/kirjallisuus/bushman_metodistit.shtml

[Sky]

Professor Bushman argues that the preacher with whom Joseph first shared his experience rejected the story "not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story but because of its familiarity. Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions." http://www.mormonism...etodistit.shtml

Perhaps the preacher also felt somewhat threatened? Especially if Joseph shared the part about none of the churches being true, or "all wrong."

[Calm]

I think it started with the "The Joseph Smith Paper's Project".

On the contrary, it started much earlier than that. See this 1985 Ensign article for example: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng Edited January 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

[media=]

There is a post on another board that says this....

"It's interesting that you say "all the other people from Joseph's own time and region that sound so suspiciously similar", they actually bring that up at one point trying to debate Fawn Brodie's point that his vision was not found in any newspaper. They said his experience was not unusual for that time. I thought that was one of the biggest statements in the video that could make people go, what?."

So for the question, were many receiving visions as Fawn Brodie alludes?

Still very good that we are coming forth with truth about multiple accounts. I think it started with the "The Joseph Smith Paper's Project". If it starts anyone on a faith crisis maybe their testimony needed to be strengthened.

Note: I haven't listened to all of them maybe they'll answer my question! But thought some here might enjoy these Youtubes.

A better question would be, "Were any other people called as prophets, seers, and revelators to restore the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth in its purity and fullness, and given priesthood keys to enable them to do so?"

And, while I agree with you that frank discussion of multiple First Vision accounts is a good thing, and that the Joseph Smith Papers Project is a good thing, discussion of the former hardly began with the latter. See, e.g., http://www.lds.org/l...M1000004d82620a____

Edited January 26, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

On the contrary, it started much earlier than that. See this 1985 Ensign article for example: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng

Dang it, Cal! (Great minds think alike, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! )

[teddyaware]

[media=]

There is a post on another board that says this....

"It's interesting that you say "all the other people from Joseph's own time and region that sound so suspiciously similar", they actually bring that up at one point trying to debate Fawn Brodie's point that his vision was not found in any newspaper. They said his experience was not unusual for that time. I thought that was one of the biggest statements in the video that could make people go, what?."

So for the question, were many receiving visions as Fawn Brodie alludes?

Still very good that we are coming forth with truth about multiple accounts. I think it started with the "The Joseph Smith Paper's Project". If it starts anyone on a faith crisis maybe their testimony needed to be strengthened.

Note: I haven't listened to all of them maybe they'll answer my question! But thought some here might enjoy these Youtubes.

There may be others who may have claimed to have had powerful religious experiences during this time of nationwide religious fervor, but The Prophet Joseph Smith is the only one who produced (we LDS believe by the gift and power of God) the prodigious, Christ-centered spiritual masterpiece known as the Book of Mormon. This "most perfect book" of gospel light, life, wisdom and knowledge mightily validates the likelyhood that Joseph's testimony of being visited by God and angels, when just an boy, is verily true.

Edited January 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Dang it, Cal! (Great minds think alike, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! )

[rpn]

One of the pinions of my testimony of Joseph Smith's restoration is that if he'd been making up a church, he wouldn't likely have bee able to imagine upheaving the very nature of God that he'd been raised on. And if doing so HAD crossed his mind, how likely is it that he would have picked that to change, knowing the tremendous backlash that would come from announcing that everyone's belief about the nature of God was completely wrong.

[volgadon]

Check out the two articles in the links, particularly the one by Richard Bushman. http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/viewQuestion.aspx?view=c4ffc4e2-d515-4a8f-9882-192865db19d2

[volgadon]

Check out the two articles in the links, particularly the one by Richard Bushman. http://ldsfaq.byu.ed...82-192865db19d2

Nevermind, Daz beat me to it.

[why me]

This is one of the problems that we have: there have been differing accounts of the first vision reported in the ensign among other lds publications but for some reason when people read critic accounts they are left with the impression that the church is hiding it. Even in the Joseph Smith priesthood manual the footnotes note the 1832 account. So, there is nothing new here at all. But I do think that the lds church needs to publicize this more to take the wind out of the critic's sails. The JSP's are an attempt to do this.

Edited January 27, 2013 by why me

[bcuzbcuz]

[media=]

There is a post on another board that says this....

"It's interesting that you say "all the other people from Joseph's own time and region that sound so suspiciously similar", they actually bring that up at one point trying to debate Fawn Brodie's point that his vision was not found in any newspaper. They said his experience was not unusual for that time. I thought that was one of the biggest statements in the video that could make people go, what?."

So for the question, were many receiving visions as Fawn Brodie alludes?

Still very good that we are coming forth with truth about multiple accounts. I think it started with the "The Joseph Smith Paper's Project". If it starts anyone on a faith crisis maybe their testimony needed to be strengthened.

Note: I haven't listened to all of them maybe they'll answer my question! But thought some here might enjoy these Youtubes.

ETA: Oops, sorry, Fawn didn't allude to other's visions, I misread that. She questioned why it wasn't in the newspaper!

Joseph Smith's vision was one among many such visions throughout the northwest of the US in the late 1700's and early 1800's. Visions of Mary and Jesus are even today common occurrences. Millions upon millions of pilgrimages are conducted throughout the world yearly in response to visions reported. Mary has been seen on all the continents (except Antarctica, as far as I know). Massive churches, shrines and tabernacles draw crowds who even crawl great distances on their knees to pay homage. My brother-in-law, a devout Catholic, has walked several hundred kilometers, falling to his knees and praying devotions every few meters to the shrine of his favorite saint. He still crosses himself devoutly and many times each time he drives past the shrine.

Visions come in all shapes and sizes. One of the great names in Tarot cards, Crowley, claimed he had divine inspiration in putting his card suite together, with the God Thoth standing over his shoulder, giving divine guidance. Ellen White, founder of the Seventh Day Adventists, claimed many visions after being struck on the head with a stone.

[why me]

The other thing that I have said to many people is that church history is very faith promoting if one does the research without bias and understands that the critics use a very tried technique of persuasion based on a persuasion of doubt. This video shows just how faith supporting church history is and just who Joseph was as a young man who has seen a vision.

[cdowis]

JS was unique that some of his visions were witnessed by others.

[why me]

One of the pinions of my testimony of Joseph Smith's restoration is that if he'd been making up a church, he wouldn't likely have bee able to imagine upheaving the very nature of God that he'd been raised on. And if doing so HAD crossed his mind, how likely is it that he would have picked that to change, knowing the tremendous backlash that would come from announcing that everyone's belief about the nature of God was completely wrong.

I can go one step further. Why bother with a book and visions at all. Just form another protestant sect. He would have been more successful and probably have lived to a ripe old age. To go through with visions and a book would have taken much imagination and time. I just don't see him having such time for such an elaborate plan. From money digger to church founder complete with visions, a book and a fine story to tell without much of a break to reflect is amazing.

[telnetd]

I've never had an issue with multiple accounts of the First Vision. It could simply mean that he shared different aspects of it at different times with different people.

I looked at the account written in History of the Church, volume 1. I found one of

Joseph's questions rather odd - "Why persecute me for telling the truth?". I

wonder if his parents ever told him that the others were persecuting him because

they believed he was not telling the truth.

Gail

[Kenngo1969]

Awwww ...

[cinepro]

As a missionary in Mexico almost 40 years ago, I met many people who claimed to have seen angels or Jesus (I cannot recall whether anyone claimed to have seen God the Father). Professor Bushman argues that the preacher with whom Joseph first shared his experience rejected the story "not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story but because of its familiarity. Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions." http://www.mormonism...etodistit.shtml

If Joseph were telling people the 1832 account in 1820 and not the 1838 one, Bushman's theory would certainly make sense.

[becsjulia]

visions being a common occurance at the time was necessary i reckon!! The buzz about religion, and it being common for people to have visions is a GOOD thing!! It would have provided the FAITH needed for Jesus and Heavenly Father to reveal unto him.. The whole circumstances of the town and area seems as tho all in preparation for Joseph to recieve the vision ( well thats what i feel strongly about anyways this knowledge appeases the parts in my mind that question these things) the whole town having a zeal for the Lord so (the cultural factor was there and set so again faith could build upon) its just like in nowadays culturally in the church, we believe in personal revelation, that God speaks to each of us, pretend this wasnt common and we only though it happened to prophets, well if it happened wed doubt wouldnt we!! So it being a cultural accepted thing seems as tho it played its role in aiding in building Joseph faith preparing him, so when the vision happened, it was UNDENIABLE and was a foundation planted so strongly that despite all the persecution (and his many HUGE sins and mistakes) he continued to restore alot of the gospel.. theres so much more that adds to my belief in the first vision but keeping it on the subject right now yip i believe it was necessary!!!

[followerofemmanuel]

This is an interesting video, thanks. There are many things I admire about the LDS faith but the thing I have the most difficulty with was all the various accounts. If there had been only Jesus in the vision or an angel visiting Joseph with the message of restoration, I think I may have accepted the message. I think, (if I am not mistaken) the vision that is excepted is that Father and Son were there, and I just struggle with that notion. I say this, not to be disrespectful in anyway. Polygamy or the other challenges that others have really have not fazed me. Anyway, for what it is worth, I really appreciate this thread. Thanks

[Tacenda]

This is an interesting video, thanks. There are many things I admire about the LDS faith but the thing I have the most difficulty with was all the various accounts. If there had been only Jesus in the vision or an angel visiting Joseph with the message of restoration, I think I may have accepted the message. I think, (if I am not mistaken) the vision that is excepted is that Father and Son were there, and I just struggle with that notion. I say this, not to be disrespectful in anyway. Polygamy or the other challenges that others have really have not fazed me. Anyway, for what it is worth, I really appreciate this thread. Thanks

Thank you for responding. I've struggled with the various FV accounts. But trying not to let it trip me up.