Taking Christ Out Of Christmas?

[MiserereNobis]

As a Catholic, I totally agree when I see signs/bumper stickers/whatever that say "Let's put Christ back into Christmas."

As a Catholic, I'd like to also add: Let's put Mass back into Christmas

For those of you attending tonight, have a blessed midnight Mass, especially as we once again hear the Gloria.

For our LDS brothers and sisters, may God bless you in this holy season as we all celebrate the coming of the Redeemer into the world.

+ + +

Glória in excélsis Deo

et in terra pax homínibus bonae voluntátis.

+ + +

[Kenngo1969]

... For our LDS brothers and sisters, may God bless you in this holy season as we all celebrate the coming of the Redeemer into the world.

+ + +

Glória in excélsis Deo

et in terra pax homínibus bonae voluntátis.

+ + +

And the same to you Miserere Nobis.

[Calm]

As a Catholic, I'd like to also add: Let's put Mass back into Christmas

I think I might add that whenever I hear the first just for the delight of it.

[Robert F. Smith]

It's true that I have not studied the issue exhaustively, but, respectfully, I am not prepared to concede your characterization of those who advocated amending the Pledge of Allegiance to include the phrase "under God" as militant and intolerant. The nation as a whole was quite a bit more accepting of religious/Christian ideas when the change to the Pledge was adopted, so it makes me wonder why such militancy and intolerance would have been necessary. Thank you for your contribution to the thread, and thank you in advance for any reply you would care to make.

The "under God" phrase was inserted by well-meaning people who also demanded loyalty oaths from college professors, who used "White Citizens Councils" and the local judiciary to prevent minorities from enjoying equal rights, who claimed that accurate descriptions by highly skilled foreign service personnel of what was taking place in China caused us to "lose China" (leading to the firing of all our competent FS personnel, with none to replace them), who held militantly intolerant hearings in D.C. accusing the innocent of being communists (leading to blacklisting of many in Hollywood), who accused President Eisenhower of being a communist, etc., never imagining that their "patriotism" was the greatest threat to the Constitution, and never understanding why there must be a "wall of separation" between state and religion.

Hugh Nibley thought the demand for loyalty oaths absurd and made his objections plain (http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=76&chapid=951), while Senator Joe McCarthy was finally denounced by his own fellow senators. Those of us who lived through the 50s and understood what had happened were embarrassed and ashamed of the displays of totalitarianism by some sectors of society. Lack of respect for and observance of the U.S. Constitution are still an immense problem, if only because the "totalitarian temptation"* is still so much with us -- the same temptation which caused one-third of our brethren to fall from Heaven.

* Jean-Francois Revel,The Totalitarian Temptation (Doubleday, 1977/ Penguin, 1978).

[Robert F. Smith]

As a Catholic, I totally agree when I see signs/bumper stickers/whatever that say "Let's put Christ back into Christmas."

As a Catholic, I'd like to also add: Let's put Mass back into Christmas

For those of you attending tonight, have a blessed midnight Mass, especially as we once again hear the Gloria.

For our LDS brothers and sisters, may God bless you in this holy season as we all celebrate the coming of the Redeemer into the world.

+ + +

Glória in excélsis Deo

et in terra pax homínibus bonae voluntátis.

+ + +

Thank you for your kind wishes for us Mormons. May you be blessed by the Lord as well.

By the way, we have a number of Roman Catholic hymns in our LDS Hymnbook, including #203, the wonderful Christmas song "Angels We Have Heard on High," with its chorus of "Goria, in excelsis Deo." I so enjoy that chorus. We sang it at church this Christmas season and it seemed to me that the whole congregation took special delight in that rolling chorus, allowing us for a moment or two to worship our Lord and Savior together with the angels themselves.

I had the good fortune of having a Mormon mother who taught me to sing LDS Hymn #202, "Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful," in Latin. Even today I recall the Latin while singing the English words. Thank you for reminding me. I visited her grave today (her birthday is tomorrow).

Edited December 26, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[DavidB]

What is the cultural significance of Christmas to those who do not Jesus son of Mary was a real person, as there is not much or any proof He existed.

I would rather have the Judicary restraining religious practices than have an executive or legislative branch mandating religious practices.

[Robert F. Smith]

What is the cultural significance of Christmas to those who do not Jesus son of Mary was a real person, as there is not much or any proof He existed.

I would rather have the Judicary restraining religious practices than have an executive or legislative branch mandating religious practices.

Actually, no serious historian doubts that Jesus existed. The question at issue is whether he was indeed the Son of God, the Messiah. Upon that there is considerable disagreement.

Jesus need not be a part of Christmas observance:

There are people I know who love Christmas as a purely cultural celebration, with quaffing of booze, smooching under the mistletoe, warm camaraderie before a Yule log, a nice, brightly lit Tannenbaum (Christmas tree), gift giving, the wide-eyed delight and squeals of children as they wait for Saint Nick to arrive with goodies, wonderful dinner with relatives from far and wide. What's not to like? I had a Jewish friend who always loved to go caroling with her Christian neighbors, just as I always enjoyed singing Jewish Hannukah hymns.

[volgadon]

As a Catholic, I totally agree when I see signs/bumper stickers/whatever that say "Let's put Christ back into Christmas."

As a Catholic, I'd like to also add: Let's put Mass back into Christmas

I went to the Midnight Mass at the Mt of Beatitudes once. Wonderful experience.

[Kenngo1969]

Actually, no serious historian doubts that Jesus existed. The question at issue is whether he was indeed the Son of God, the Messiah. Upon that there is considerable disagreement.

Jesus need not be a part of Christmas observance:

There are people I know who love Christmas as a purely cultural celebration, with quaffing of booze, smooching under the mistletoe, warm camaraderie before a Yule log, a nice, brightly lit Tannenbaum (Christmas tree), gift giving, the wide-eyed delight and squeals of children as they wait for Saint Nick to arrive with goodies, wonderful dinner with relatives from far and wide. What's not to like? I had a Jewish friend who always loved to go caroling with her Christian neighbors, just as I always enjoyed singing Jewish Hannukah hymns.

Hmmm. Fair enough. If one, irrespective of religious beliefs, sees fit to sieze the season (yes, I like alliteration ) as an opportunity further to strengthen ties with friends and family, that cannot be a bad thing. I would hope, however, that they would give some thought (however brief) to the cultural significance of Christmas according to at least one of the definitions of culture previously cited in this thread.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

What is the cultural significance of Christmas to those who do not Jesus son of Mary was a real person, as there is not much or any proof He existed.

I would rather have the Judicary restraining religious practices than have an executive or legislative branch mandating religious practices.

Egad! I'd rather have neither, thank you very much! I would much rather have courts continue their (sometimes feeble) attempts to delineate that murky line between allowing free religious exercise and disallowing government religious establishment, thank you very much! I maintain belief in the continued utility of certain elements of the First Amendment no matter who else may insist that those elements are tres passe! Do you believe that the "executive or legislative branch" is "mandating religious practice" by allowing visible manifestations of religious devotion in certain activities and displays this time of year?

Edited December 26, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Monster]

Christ was taken out of Christmas along time ago. It did not need the help of government to accomplish it. Not to say individuals can not celebrate Christmas the way they want but from a purely practical standpoint it is all about retail sales now.

Even in the LDS church every Sunday before Christmas tends to be more of Smithmas. Our SP spoke last Sunday for about 10 min. He mentioned JS 3 times Christ not once. We in the church complain about secularists tearing down nativity scenes and yet every Christmas you would never know it was Christmas at one of our meetings other than we throw in a sprinkling of christmas songs. We have very efficiently removed Christ from Christmas ourselves.

[volgadon]

Christ was taken out of Christmas along time ago. It did not need the help of government to accomplish it. Not to say individuals can not celebrate Christmas the way they want but from a purely practical standpoint it is all about retail sales now.

Even in the LDS church every Sunday before Christmas tends to be more of Smithmas. Our SP spoke last Sunday for about 10 min. He mentioned JS 3 times Christ not once. We in the church complain about secularists tearing down nativity scenes and yet every Christmas you would never know it was Christmas at one of our meetings other than we throw in a sprinkling of christmas songs. We have very efficiently removed Christ from Christmas ourselves.

I did not hear the name Joseph Smith once in Sacrament Meeting this Sunday.

[Kenngo1969]

Christ was taken out of Christmas along time ago. It did not need the help of government to accomplish it. Not to say individuals can not celebrate Christmas the way they want but from a purely practical standpoint it is all about retail sales now.

Even in the LDS church every Sunday before Christmas tends to be more of Smithmas. Our SP spoke last Sunday for about 10 min. He mentioned JS 3 times Christ not once. We in the church complain about secularists tearing down nativity scenes and yet every Christmas you would never know it was Christmas at one of our meetings other than we throw in a sprinkling of christmas songs. We have very efficiently removed Christ from Christmas ourselves.

You'll be shocked, I'm sure, to read that I disagree.

P.S.: Did you read any of the sources in the OP which spawned the thread? Do you have anything to contribute to that topic, or were you just looking to vent your spleen by alleging that the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't focus enough on ... Jesus Christ?

Edited December 27, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

I did not hear the name Joseph Smith once in Sacrament Meeting this Sunday.

Same here. The choir performed several Christmas songs, Luke was read and a true story about a concentration camp survivor living a Christlike life, not one hint of JS or even the Book of Mormon, very different every year from our regular meetings. Edited December 27, 2012 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

Blackstrap,

Thanks for the Swissair disaster reference. As a general rule, I wonder if we might not become so concerned about avoiding government establishment of religion that we might (as seems to be the case in the Swissair memorial observance) come completely to devalue the First Amendment's other clause regarding its free exercise. I hope not.

[Monster]

Sounds like your wards were more in tune with the spirit of Christmas than mine. We had a returning missionary speak. Then the stake president. LIke I said it was nothing about Christmas.

[Robert F. Smith]

Christ was taken out of Christmas along time ago. It did not need the help of government to accomplish it. Not to say individuals can not celebrate Christmas the way they want but from a purely practical standpoint it is all about retail sales now.

Even in the LDS church every Sunday before Christmas tends to be more of Smithmas. Our SP spoke last Sunday for about 10 min. He mentioned JS 3 times Christ not once. We in the church complain about secularists tearing down nativity scenes and yet every Christmas you would never know it was Christmas at one of our meetings other than we throw in a sprinkling of christmas songs. We have very efficiently removed Christ from Christmas ourselves.

During the month of December, we had a big Christmas party for the entire ward, and many came whom we do not often see at Church. It included a nativity presentation and songs by the Primary Children. There was also a room set aside for nativity scenes, including a living creche (a newly married couple, both returned missionaries, played Joseph & Mary, with a fake baby Jesus). Generous donations were made at the Giving Tree, so that the bishopric could go around and provide gifts and cash for the less fortunate. Every Sunday we sang Christmas songs in Sacrament meeting, and Jesus Christ was mentioned frequently. Wonderful Christmas music was sung by the ward choir and by the primary children (different than at the party). Some of us shed tears of joy. This past Sunday in High Priest Group, I gave a lesson on Christianity based on a talk by Elder Hales at October Conference. We had a nice discussion of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

Through it all, Joseph Smith may have been mentioned, but I cannot honestly recall his name ever coming up (even though his birthday was on the 22nd of Dec). The focus was and remains on Jesus Christ, as it should.

You might want to privately complain to your bishop and to your stake president that you'd like some Christ put back into Christmas.

[Kenngo1969]

... You might want to privately complain to your bishop and to your stake president that you'd like some Christ put back into Christmas.

Sounds like you had a lovely Christmas season. It sounds much like the Christmas season I had in my ward (except that I missed making the rounds with the Bishopric of my ward and caroling to the singles/widows. Had bronchitis, dang it! ). And I second your motion that El Monstruo should speak privately with his Bishop and/or his Stake President.