Does God "Kill" People

[canard78]

A close friend is suffering a serious illness, it is likely to curtail his life. I’m spending a lot of time wrestling with the sometimes trite response ‘it all happens for a reason,’ or ‘it’s in His hands.’

Does God kill people? Or does nature? If it’s nature why hope and pray for a change in outcome? Or give blessings of healing? If, on the other hand God does retain power over death, does that also mean God can choose the moment of our passing? If so, that leads to some unpleasant scenarios. I get on a plane, reassured that if it’s not my time to go, I’ll be safe. But is that the case in reality, and if so, is it for every person on every plane? Did every bullet in WW1 (and every conflict before and since) get guided by angels to find its target or miss it? Did the drunk driver who cut down a pregnant mother before wrapping himself around a tree get prompted to drink one beer too many? Did the tsunami that flattened South East Asia few year ago, killing millions get triggered by God? And if so, why did He choose some to find a tree to cling on, while others drowned.

Can we say that every person dies at the moment of His choosing? And if so, how much puppetry does he have to do to make that happen? If the answer is no, He doesn’t ‘make’ it happen, why do we seek to trust Him to protect us from harm? Why would He provide protection for His LDS ‘elect’ but turn a blind eye to others. I can’t believe some of us have a privileged power or protection over death. We either all do (in which case every person dies at God’s chosen moment of flicking the switch) or none of us do. I can’t see why there would be favouritism. Are Angels really guarding us? Close friends talk of a motorbike accident when they were expecting their first child. They describe the feeling of the motorbike being slowly lowered to the ground and having no injury and the baby being healthy. They went on to have several more children. Was the motorbike really carefully lowered to the floor by a greater power? Or were they just lucky? Could they just have easily have died an instant death resulting in all kids never existing? And if he provided that protection for them… why not others? Are some people’s lives (and the potential onward impact they might have) so meaningless and insignificant that they die when nature chooses, but the special ones live on? Are there commandments we live that qualify us for the special privilege?

A recent conference talk gave the ‘miracle’ of 3 kids being saved from the Haiti earthquake: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/what-thinks-christ-of-me?lang=eng

A sister gave a recent talk of paying her tithing, buying a computer she couldn’t afford to fulfil her calling and then getting a gift of the exact amount she spent on the computer.

Peope talk of lost keys on a scout camp being lost and found after prayer.

Why would God intervene for 3 kids but leave 1000s to die? Why would God trouble himself with the cost of a PC or lost keys, when a storm blows into Eastern USA killing many. Does God intervene? Or do we rationalise the pain of death and disappointment by convincing ourselves that the pain is part of a greater purpose and all in His hands after all?

[altersteve]

God does not "kill" anyone. He brings them back home to Him, and/or allows them to be brought back home to Him.

Edited November 28, 2012 by altersteve

[canard78]

God does not "kill" anyone. He brings them back home to Him, and/or allows them to be brought back home to Him.

I'm happy for you to rephrase the mortal death as a moment of returning home if it assists the conversation.

Are you saying that every 'return home' is at a time of His chosing? Is every death/return home at the 'right time' for each of the billions of his children.

What is the difference between 'making' and 'allowing?'

[mathonihah]

Does God kill people? Or does nature?

God kills, and makes alive:

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:39)

6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. (Old Testament | 1 Samuel 2:6)

7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me. (Old Testament | 2 Kings 5:7)

[bluebell]

I'm happy for you to rephrase the mortal death as a moment of returning home if it assists the conversation.

I think remembering that death really is no different than birth, is important. Of course it is sometimes tragic and usually sad for those left behind, and we always need to be sensitive to those who are grieving because they have a legitimate reason to do so (as do we when death touches our families) and we should never try to take that away from them with cliched words. It's appropriate to mourn. It's appropriate to be sad because we are separated from someone that we love.

But, in the whole realm of things, death isn't a tragedy. Everyone dies, because that's how the plan works. That's how we move on. It would be a tragedy for someone to be stuck in mortality forever.

Are you saying that every 'return home' is at a time of His chosing? Is every death/return home at the 'right time' for each of the billions of his children.

I believe that in most instances, every time we 'return home' it's at the time when God has chosen for our mortal experience to be over.

The only times i believe this is not true is when someone else's actions take a life. In those circumstances, I believe that God often allows the consequences of the person's unrighteous choice for His own reasons (such as those listed in the Book of Mormon when groups of believing Lamanites are killed by their wicked countrymen because of their belief).

What is the difference between 'making' and 'allowing?'

In my mind, it's the difference between creating a situation, or allowing a situation which was created by some other force or person to proceed uninterrupted.

[CV75]

What is the difference between 'making' and 'allowing?'

I think the difference between “making” and “allowing” is pretty clear from the dictionary, so any similarity is in the Lord’s will—whether He makes His will to happen or allows events that accommodate His will.

Prayers for finding keys are very individual and personal, and He may use these opportunities to make Himself known to the one praying. Deadly storms may appear generalized, but He may intervene and spare those who need to know Him in this way, and allow those to die who need to know Him in that way. Related to what someone mentioned earlier, His will is to bring us home under most favorable conditions and in the most favorable condition to know Him.

In addition, what He makes or allows to happen to one set of persons in turn influences what He makes or allows to happen to another set of persons so that it all works out in favor of His children knowing Him, whether in in life or in death. Also, He suffered all these things Himself and overcame them, and has promised to restore all things to the way they should be.

[Duncan]

This is what I was alluding to in my post about the Gospel and the Korean War. I have heard some say that because of the war the gospel was now being preached to the Korean People. I have no problem with that idea of the gospel being preached to the Korean People. One of my favourite mission companions was a Korean. What I don't understand is did God orchestrate the war in order to get the gospel preached. Granted that thousands died as a result and thousands suffered as a result fo the conflict and the gospel is being preached on the other side and healing is available either here or later on. Plus too my post about people who committ suicide or just give up on life because it's too overwhelming, like why would things get so bad that that is the decision they made or just the state they are in. It seems if something goes right God gets the credit yet if it doesn't then it's part of some plan or something

[canard78]

I think remembering that death really is no different than birth, is important. Of course it is sometimes tragic and usually sad for those left behind, and we always need to be sensitive to those who are grieving because they have a legitimate reason to do so (as do we when death touches our families) and we should never try to take that away from them with cliched words. It's appropriate to mourn. It's appropriate to be sad because we are separated from someone that we love.

But, in the whole realm of things, death isn't a tragedy. Everyone dies, because that's how the plan works. That's how we move on. It would be a tragedy for someone to be stuck in mortality forever.

I believe that in most instances, every time we 'return home' it's at the time when God has chosen for our mortal experience to be over.

The only times i believe this is not true is when someone else's actions take a life. In those circumstances, I believe that God often allows the consequences of the person's unrighteous choice for His own reasons (such as those listed in the Book of Mormon when groups of believing Lamanites are killed by their wicked countrymen because of their belief).

In my mind, it's the difference between creating a situation, or allowing a situation which was created by some other force or person to proceed uninterrupted.

Thanks for your compassionate response. The sadness of the reality of potentially losing a loved one is painful. I want to allow myself to get angry and point out the contradictions in all of our belief system. But I know that's neither positive nor productive.

Instead I'll ask a question. And I guess that's all I have at the moment. If we are indeed in the 'hollow of His hand' why pray for protection on a journey? Would the course of our life (and death) alter as a result.

If someone has a certain mission and plan on earth, how could there be a variable in the termination? If someone is sick and doesn't seek a priesthood blessing, might they die sooner than had they otherwise sought it? Or do prayers and blessings do little more than help us have the reassurance that we are mostly powerless and need to just trust.

I know in the scope of eternity we view death as a 'graduation opportunity' - but I can't help but wonder if that's just a coping mechanism for dealing with the grief of loss. It allows us to defer the to another day. Or no day.

Is God subject to the same laws as us and therefore unable to stop the laws of physics, chemistry and biology that propel the speeding bullet, the raging wind, the creeping cancer and inebriated driver towards their helpless victim? Is he the God who weeps and mourns with us, but rarely intervenes to prevent a tragedy caused by the ravages of nature and recklessness of mankind?

If he would intervene for one, why not others? If he would stop some from having their mortal probation cut short by the decisions of others, why is another person's time on earth less important to protect?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Personally, I don't think God kills because I don't think Gods (who I believe to be finite people limited to a specific time and place) are in control of every particle in the universe. I have never really understood why that mindset is comforting for some; it seems to me that such a view is pure predestination, and a complete negation of free will.

I think that the occasional Lost Keys and Driving In The Rain stories I've heard at church are examples of simple confirmation bias; I think we only obtain any blessing from God by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. In other words, if I keep control of a car during a potential accident, it's because I successfully navigated within the physics of natural law. Element had an existence from the time God had; He found Himself in the midst of other Intelligences, same as the rest of us, meaning that while He can organize His fellows by offering a Plan they can choose to take part in of their own free, He cannot dictate the movement of every piece of quantum information. Brigham Young taught that there is no such thing as a miracle except to those who don't understand, and that God is a scientific character acting according to law and natural philosophy. As a volitional being, God can act, teaching His children and planting gardens, but He cannot be blamed (or take credit for) every event and causal relationship in existence.

I think many aspects of the nationalistic histories in the Old Testament are inaccurate representations of deity written by the "corrupt and designing priests" who committed "many errors"; if, on the other hand, it turns out that they are accurate, then I refuse to worship such a being. I don't believe in an unconcerned Deist God, but I do think that God only intervenes directly "from time to time."

If a decent God exists, then I think He's a Fisher of Men, who casts His nets to save the Intelligences of humanity when they die. Note that Christ said that it is only "when I shall come in my glory [that] ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality" -- why specify that it is only when He is physically near to this sphere that we will be changed if He is not constrained in some way? If He has such limitless power over death that He could make us immortal at any time without our needing to go through, say, the kind of experiences that make it onto websites like Best Gore, then He's immoral for not using that power. It is only possible for Intelligences to receive a fullness of joy when they are inseparably connected to and housed within the tabernacle of a body made of element; someone who "allows" a murder to take place when they have the power to stop it is not worth honoring as a "God".

("The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost [...] is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death." I think much of the "destroy" language in places like Revelation or the D&C is a more metaphorical "destruction" by the fire of our own guilt that we experience when God pierces us with the flaming sword of truth going out of His mouth; "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. [...] The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone." "It will not be by sword or gun that this kingdom will roll on.")

(Frankly, I think it's pretty typical that the people who claim that God causes hurricanes to teach some abstract ambiguous moral lesson have simply never been in one, or are not sufficiently thinking through the implications of their philosophical stance.) I'd rather trust a "weak" limited and finite God who is good than an omniscient and omnipresent essence that created the possibility of cancer ex nihilo and then predestines some people to experience it just to make a point.

When his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.

Edited November 28, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[bluebell]

Thanks for your compassionate response. The sadness of the reality of potentially losing a loved one is painful. I want to allow myself to get angry and point out the contradictions in all of our belief system. But I know that's neither positive nor productive.

Instead I'll ask a question. And I guess that's all I have at the moment. If we are indeed in the 'hollow of His hand' why pray for protection on a journey? Would the course of our life (and death) alter as a result.

If someone has a certain mission and plan on earth, how could there be a variable in the termination? If someone is sick and doesn't seek a priesthood blessing, might they die sooner than had they otherwise sought it? Or do prayers and blessings do little more than help us have the reassurance that we are mostly powerless and need to just trust.

I know in the scope of eternity we view death as a 'graduation opportunity' - but I can't help but wonder if that's just a coping mechanism for dealing with the grief of loss. It allows us to defer the to another day. Or no day.

Is God subject to the same laws as us and therefore unable to stop the laws of physics, chemistry and biology that propel the speeding bullet, the raging wind, the creeping cancer and inebriated driver towards their helpless victim? Is he the God who weeps and mourns with us, but rarely intervenes to prevent a tragedy caused by the ravages of nature and recklessness of mankind?

If he would intervene for one, why not others? If he would stop some from having their mortal probation cut short by the decisions of others, why is another person's time on earth less important to protect?

I certainly don't have all the answers, but one thing came to my mind when reading this post.

The definition of prayer found in the LDS bible dictionary-

"The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them."

Prayer or blessings is are not about trying to change God's mind. THey are to help us know His mind and understand His will better, and to receive all that He is willing to give us. But like all good parents, sometimes the answer is no. It has nothing to do with how important one person is over another. Everyone has different things to do, and different places they need to be to do them. There is work on both sides of the veil, and the mortal person is no more important than the one who has already passed on. Death is not our enemy and being dead is not the end of our work or our lives.

But, there really are no easy answers and especially when we are grieving, it's difficult to make sense of things that we just don't yet understand. In such cases, we have to be gentle with ourselves, but also stay open for the Spirit to teach us in our extremities.

[bluebell]

Personally, I don't think God kills because I don't think Gods (who I believe to be finite people limited to a specific time and place) are in control of every particle in the universe. I have never really understood why that mindset is comforting for some; it seems to me that such a view is pure predestination, and a complete negation of free will.

I think that the occasional Lost Keys and Driving In The Rain stories I've heard at church are examples of simple confirmation bias; I think we only obtain any blessing from God by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. In other words, if I keep control of a car during a potential accident, it's because I successfully navigated within the physics of natural law. Element had an existence from the time God had; He found Himself in the midst of other Intelligences, same as the rest of us, meaning that while He can organize His fellows by offering a Plan they can choose to take part in of their own free, He cannot dictate the movement of every piece of quantum information. Brigham Young taught that there is no such thing as a miracle except to those who don't understand, and that God is a scientific character acting according to law and natural philosophy. As a volitional being, God can act, teaching His children and planting gardens, but He cannot be blamed (or take credit for) every event and causal relationship in existence.

I think many aspects of the nationalistic histories in the Old Testament are inaccurate representations of deity written by the "corrupt and designing priests" who committed "many errors"; if, on the other hand, it turns out that they are accurate, then I refuse to worship such a being. I don't believe in an unconcerned Deist God, but I do think that God only intervenes directly "from time to time."

If a decent God exists, then I think He's a Fisher of Men, who casts His nets to save the Intelligences of humanity when they die. Note that Christ said that it is only "when I shall come in my glory [that] ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality" -- why specify that it is only when He is physically near to this sphere that we will be changed if He is not constrained in some way? If He has such limitless power over death that He could make us immortal at any time without our needing to go through, say, the kind of experiences that make it onto websites like Best Gore, then He's immoral for not using that power. It is only possible for Intelligences to receive a fullness of joy when they are inseparably connected to and housed within the tabernacle of a body made of element; someone who "allows" a murder to take place when they have the power to stop it is not worth honoring as a "God".

("The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost [...] is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death." I think much of the "destroy" language in places like Revelation or the D&C is a more metaphorical "destruction" by the fire of our own guilt that we experience when God pierces us with the flaming sword of truth going out of His mouth; "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. [...] The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone." "It will not be by sword or gun that this kingdom will roll on.")

(Frankly, I think it's pretty typical that the people who claim that God causes hurricanes to teach some abstract ambiguous moral lesson have simply never been in one, or are not sufficiently thinking through the implications of their philosophical stance.) I'd rather trust a "weak" limited and finite God who is good than an omniscient and omnipresent essence that created the possibility of cancer ex nihilo and then predestines some people to experience it just to make a point.

I think those people who believe that God is present in every aspect of their lives do so because of the experiences they've had with him.

I love when Pres. Monson taught in conference "I believe that no concern of ours is too small or insignificant. The Lord is in the details of our lives." Elder Maxwell taught the same thing as well-God is in the details.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

If God is "in the details" enough to spend His time finding lost keys because "no concern of ours is too small or insignificant", why is He not "in the details" enough to address such small concerns as, oh, I don't know ...

Edited November 28, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[bluebell]

If God is "in the details" enough to spend His time finding lost keys because "no concern of ours is too small or insignificant", why is He not "in the details" enough to address such small concerns as, oh, I don't know ...

I spent 4 months studying the holocaust in Nazi occupied germany is great detail. It is one of the top rated holocaust classes in the country, putting everyone who successfully took it in the top 10% of people in the U.S. as far as knowledge on the subject. It was one of the best and worst experiences of my life and in some ways i'm still recoverying from that kind of an immersion.

But it taught me that absolutely God is in the details, even many times when He's not asked to be.

It's so easy to stand back and look at a huge picture and not see God-it's like standing back from a huge t.v. and not being able to see the pixels. If you look close enough though, they are there and so is He.

Horrible things happen because people are allowed to choose to be horrible if they want to. But God doesn't abandon those who are affected, even if He does not remove all the consequences of the impact of other people's choices. It's in the details that He is able to help without violating the agency of others.

[canard78]

This is what I was alluding to in my post about the Gospel and the Korean War. I have heard some say that because of the war the gospel was now being preached to the Korean People. I have no problem with that idea of the gospel being preached to the Korean People. One of my favourite mission companions was a Korean. What I don't understand is did God orchestrate the war in order to get the gospel preached. Granted that thousands died as a result and thousands suffered as a result fo the conflict and the gospel is being preached on the other side and healing is available either here or later on. Plus too my post about people who committ suicide or just give up on life because it's too overwhelming, like why would things get so bad that that is the decision they made or just the state they are in. It seems if something goes right God gets the credit yet if it doesn't then it's part of some plan or something

The last sentence is a particular concern but I hear many LDS taking that abdication of responsibility for all of life's events.

There is an 'out' for every eventuality in life:

- It's going well, we're being blessed (don't ever take the credit)... but remember 'where much is given, much is required.'

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... we're suffering the acts of evil so others may be judged. God could stop it but you were the co-incidental and unfortunate punch bag.

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... it's a temptation sent by Satan to distract us, but no trial will ever be too big, so if you fail, it's your failing

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... it's a trial sent by God to test us. It may even be Abrahamic test, not just the reprovers fire

- It's going badly (in response to our failing)... that would be a consequence of sin. Repent.

As for the Korean war, I can't imagine a parent who would 'cause/orchestrate' that much suffering in order to make it easier to teach to a later generation. It's too easy to dismiss it as part of the plan, we weren't the mother crying over her butchered son. Would you willingly offer up your family to that to gain a few more converts?

At the moment, in my attempt to see build a picture of God's role is not as a pilot of our plane but as some sort of 'air-traffic controller.' We fly the plane, we fuel it, we maintain it. Poor maintenance or unwise flight paths come with consequences. Sometimes we fly it to the wrong destination. Sometimes we crash and survive. Sometimes we crash and die. Occasionally two planes crash into each other (and it might not be the fault of one of the planes). Among all this, the great air traffic controller in the sky offers some suggestions on movements. When one listens there is an increased chance of success. Sometimes, the co-incidences of life (the financial gift that was exactly the same as a tithing donation someone couldn't afford) are minor miracles where the air traffic controller played a suggestive role, but ultimately both pilots made their decisions to make it happen.

[Duncan]

The last sentence is a particular concern but I hear many LDS taking that abdication of responsibility for all of life's events.

There is an 'out' for every eventuality in life:

- It's going well, we're being blessed (don't ever take the credit)... but remember 'where much is given, much is required.'

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... we're suffering the acts of evil so others may be judged. God could stop it but you were the co-incidental and unfortunate punch bag.

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... it's a temptation sent by Satan to distract us, but no trial will ever be too big, so if you fail, it's your failing

- It's going badly (but not of our doing)... it's a trial sent by God to test us. It may even be Abrahamic test, not just the reprovers fire

- It's going badly (in response to our failing)... that would be a consequence of sin. Repent.

As for the Korean war, I can't imagine a parent who would 'cause/orchestrate' that much suffering in order to make it easier to teach to a later generation. It's too easy to dismiss it as part of the plan, we weren't the mother crying over her butchered son. Would you willingly offer up your family to that to gain a few more converts?

At the moment, in my attempt to see build a picture of God's role is not as a pilot of our plane but as some sort of 'air-traffic controller.' We fly the plane, we fuel it, we maintain it. Poor maintenance or unwise flight paths come with consequences. Sometimes we fly it to the wrong destination. Sometimes we crash and survive. Sometimes we crash and die. Occasionally two planes crash into each other (and it might not be the fault of one of the planes). Among all this, the great air traffic controller in the sky offers some suggestions on movements. When one listens there is an increased chance of success. Sometimes, the co-incidences of life (the financial gift that was exactly the same as a tithing donation someone couldn't afford) are minor miracles where the air traffic controller played a suggestive role, but ultimately both pilots made their decisions to make it happen.

interesting perspective, thank you!

[Duncan]

I spent 4 months studying the holocaust in Nazi occupied germany is great detail. It is one of the top rated holocaust classes in the country, putting everyone who successfully took it in the top 10% of people in the U.S. as far as knowledge on the subject. It was one of the best and worst experiences of my life and in some ways i'm still recoverying from that kind of an immersion.

But it taught me that absolutely God is in the details, even many times when He's not asked to be.

It's so easy to stand back and look at a huge picture and not see God-it's like standing back from a huge t.v. and not being able to see the pixels. If you look close enough though, they are there and so is He.

Horrible things happen because people are allowed to choose to be horrible if they want to. But God doesn't abandon those who are affected, even if He does not remove all the consequences of the impact of other people's choices. It's in the details that He is able to help without violating the agency of others.

I actually have a humorous story about WW2, a poltical prisoner camp and a relative of mine, have to split but will share later!

[bluebell]

I actually have a humorous story about WW2, a poltical prisoner camp and a relative of mine, have to split but will share later!

Can't wait to hear it!

[canard78]

I spent 4 months studying the holocaust in Nazi occupied germany is great detail. It is one of the top rated holocaust classes in the country, putting everyone who successfully took it in the top 10% of people in the U.S. as far as knowledge on the subject. It was one of the best and worst experiences of my life and in some ways i'm still recoverying from that kind of an immersion.

But it taught me that absolutely God is in the details, even many times when He's not asked to be.

It's so easy to stand back and look at a huge picture and not see God-it's like standing back from a huge t.v. and not being able to see the pixels. If you look close enough though, they are there and so is He.

Horrible things happen because people are allowed to choose to be horrible if they want to. But God doesn't abandon those who are affected, even if He does not remove all the consequences of the impact of other people's choices. It's in the details that He is able to help without violating the agency of others.

But why does he address the details of some and not the details of others? It just doesn't make sense that some people's opportunities are removed because an evil person acted and God chose to stand back and let it happen. Why would he possibly plan for some of his people to fill a function of 'bait.'

If an evil person had wanted to kill Joseph Smith Snr in 1801, would God have let that happen to allow that person to be condemned? Or would He have intervened to protect one of his special chosen servants and ensure the birth of Joseph Smith Jr. Why are millions (billions) other lives and descendants considered so much less important that a natural disaster can just wipe them all out in one swipe?

And what of victims of American/British soldiers? Does God let those victims die so that 'evil' people can be judged? We don't think our soldiers are evil do we? Or did they die because a war happened and God simply didn't intervene. It was just natural consequences of political tension. No bad people, no good people, just circumstance. Collateral damage of agency.

When a non-believer says 'I don't believe in God because of the wars that he lets happen' we often respond by saying 'people die because we all have our agency and can kill and be killed with that agency.' When people say 'I don't believe in God because millions die due to natural disasters' we say, 'natural disasters happen because of the rotations of the natural circle of life and God is bound by the laws of nature.' When they say 'I don't believe because of the millions of children starving to death,' we reply 'but we can feed them and be instruments in his hands.'

If God is so willing to standby while natural disasters/political tension/financial greed kills millions (which I think the evidence suggests he does) then he's taking no active role in extending nor shortening those millions of people's lives. They die by co-incidence?

But if that's the case... why do we also teach that some people have special privileges of protection and have priesthood practices to invoke those special privileges and faith promoting stories teaching us as much?

[Damien the Leper]

God doesn't kill people. People with god(s) kill people.

[bluebell]

God doesn't kill people. People with god(s) kill people.

And of course, people with no gods kill people (lest we forget the horrors of atheist communism).

If someone wants to kill another person, if someone wants to hate another, any excuse will do.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Horrible things happen because people are allowed to choose to be horrible if they want to. [...] It's in the details that [God] is able to help without violating the agency of others.

If we tackle the suicide bomber before he successfully crashes the plane, we are "violating his agency". If we just stand by when we know we have the power to stop him, how are we not at least

if he is

? The ultimate responsibility always lies with the person using their agency to do deliberate harm, but if we have the power to use our own agency to prevent that harm and yet we don't use it, then we've become as salt that has lost its savor because we've chosen not to be the saviors of men.

(And if, as stated in the New Testament, the last enemy God will destroy is death itself, and if He has the power to change us from mortality to immortality in a twinkling, then all of the horrific murders attributed to God in the Old Testament make no sense. Onan slain because he spilled his seed on the ground? 42 kids mauled to death by bears because they teased a Prophet of Yahweh? Ugh. Not a God I'm interested in, thanks.)

If God has the power to stop holocausts, then he damn well better. If He's just standing around twiddling His all-powerful and omnipresent thumbs while letting people get shot in the head and thrown into gas chambers as an object lesson, then He's an evil "God" and I'm certainly not going to worship Him. On the other hand, if God is limited in what He can do, then we're wrong to blame Him for our own sins, but we're also wrong to attribute every last causal relationship in the universe to Him, and He cannot be present in every detail of every moment of every day (isn't that why it's such a big deal for Him to descend to our world and take us back into His presence? Because He's not everywhere at once?).

If He found Himself in the midst of other uncreated Intelligences just as we did, then He is not the ultimate source of existence and we are therefore not contingent on Him; we, like Him, cannot be created or destroyed, and so we are responsible for our actions and God is not to blame for creating the possibility for murder from nothing ... but neither is He responsible for every good thing, even if He fits good things into His overarching Plan.

Edited November 28, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[thesometimesaint]

God doesn't kill people. People with god(s) kill people.

And people without God(s) kill people. Every single one of us will die at some point. Just as ever single one of us will be Resurrected at some point. I don't have a death wish, and quite frankly I don't want to live forever in this old tired, disabled, body. I look forward to my glorious resurrection.

[canard78]

And people without God(s) kill people. Every single one of us will die at some point. Just as ever single one of us will be Resurrected at some point. I don't have a death wish, and quite frankly I don't want to live forever in this old tired, disabled, body. I look forward to my glorious resurrection.

I think he's making a play on the gun lobby slogan. But anyway,

Given the possible loss of a dear friend, I live in hope and reassurance of the Resurrection. I just feel frustrated at the notion that death comes upon every living creature at a moment of God's chosing. I don't think I can accept that. I also struggle with the notion that it's death by consequence for some people (from nature or evil) but death at a moment of God's choosing for others.

[canard78]

If we tackle the suicide bomber before he successfully crashes the plane, we are "violating his agency". If we just stand by when we know we have the power to stop him, how are we not at least

if he is

? The ultimate responsibility always lies with the person using their agency to do deliberate harm, but if we have the power to use our own agency to prevent that harm and yet we don't use it, then we've become as salt that has lost its savor because we've chosen not to be the saviors of men.

(And if, as stated in the New Testament, the last enemy God will destroy is death itself, and if He has the power to change us from mortality to immortality in a twinkling, then all of the horrific murders attributed to God in the Old Testament make no sense. Onan slain because he spilled his seed on the ground? 42 kids mauled to death by bears because they teased a Prophet of Yahweh? Ugh. Not a God I'm interested in, thanks.)

If God has the power to stop holocausts, then he damn well better. If He's just standing around twiddling His all-powerful and omnipresent thumbs while letting people get shot in the head and thrown into gas chambers as an object lesson, then He's an evil "God" and I'm certainly not going to worship Him. On the other hand, if God is limited in what He can do, then we're wrong to blame Him for our own sins, but we're also wrong to attribute every last causal relationship in the universe to Him, and He cannot be present in every detail of every moment of every day (isn't that why it's such a big deal for Him to descend to our world and take us back into His presence? Because He's not everywhere at once?).

If He found Himself in the midst of other uncreated Intelligences just as we did, then He is not the ultimate source of existence and we are therefore not contingent on Him; we, like Him, cannot be created or destroyed, and so we are responsible for our actions and God is not to blame for creating the possibility for murder from nothing ... but neither is He responsible for every good thing, even if He fits good things into His overarching Plan.

Hi Jeremy, I've appreciated your posts. I've read them all, and will probably need to read some of them again. I appreciate your perspective and thoughts. I'm not sure I'll agree with all of them once I've fully digested them. But I like your overall tone. It's an interesting starting point.

The 'occasional death interventionist' model based on need or preference just doesn't work for me right now. The idea of the 'weeping God' makes a lot more sense (I need to read Givens' book on this to see if he addresses it).

[bluebell]

But why does he address the details of some and not the details of others?

I don't believe he does.

It just doesn't make sense that some people's opportunities are removed because an evil person acted and God chose to stand back and let it happen. Why would he possibly plan for some of his people to fill a function of 'bait.'

What's the point of this whole life? Is it so that everyone get's the exact same opportunities? Has the same length of life? Does it really matter how long we are here, or how we leave, in the bigger picture, as long as we've done 'enough' in God's eyes? What opportunities do we know a person loses, when God allows them to die?

If you don't know why we are here on this earth, then life doesn't make sense. If you believe that we are here to learn and to grow and to become a specific type of person that this process is independent of the length we get to stay, and if you believe that the afterlife is an amazing place where no opportunity or blessing is denied, then even without knowing exactly all the how's and why's, there can be peace.

If an evil person had wanted to kill Joseph Smith Snr in 1801, would God have let that happen to allow that person to be condemned?

If his mission in life was over in 1801, then I would guess yes. If not, then no. Just like everyone else, in my opinion.

Or would He have intervened to protect one of his special chosen servants and ensure the birth of Joseph Smith Jr. Why are millions (billions) other lives and descendants considered so much less important that a natural disaster can just wipe them all out in one swipe?

Why would having done all that you were meant to do here on the earth and being allowed to die, make you more important than someone who had not yet done everything and was kept alive until they could die after their mission was completed? In both cases, each person would live until they had done everything they needed to do, right? What's the difference between one and the other?

And what of victims of American/British soldiers? Does God let those victims die so that 'evil' people can be judged? We don't think our soldiers are evil do we? Or did they die because a war happened and God simply didn't intervene. It was just natural consequences of political tension. No bad people, no good people, just circumstance. Collateral damage of agency.

Death is not the worse thing that can happen to someone. It's not a punishment for something, and living is not a reward-we are just wired to view life like that because of the survival instinct that God has given us, and because we don't like to miss people we love-it's hard and we never like hard things.

EVERYONE dies though. Someone who dies in battle and another who dies of old age, they are both dead-we see one as more tragic because humans react to death as if what happens in mortality is better and more important than what happens in the afterlife (if they even believe in an after life), but in reality, there is no difference between the two of them, except that one got to experience the peace and tranquility of the next life sooner than the other.

Have you ever asked yourself, does it really matter in the long run, to the person who dies through no fault of their own, when death occures, if God says it's alright? Will He approve something that is harmful to us (the whole and real us, not just the mortal body we are in right now)?

When a non-believer says 'I don't believe in God because of the wars that he lets happen' we often respond by saying 'people die because we all have our agency and can kill and be killed with that agency.' When people say 'I don't believe in God because millions die due to natural disasters' we say, 'natural disasters happen because of the rotations of the natural circle of life and God is bound by the laws of nature.' When they say 'I don't believe because of the millions of children starving to death,' we reply 'but we can feed them and be instruments in his hands.'

If God is so willing to standby while natural disasters/political tension/financial greed kills millions (which I think the evidence suggests he does) then he's taking no active role in extending nor shortening those millions of people's lives. They die by co-incidence?

I certainly don't have all the answers. Not even close. This is all my opinion. But I think they die because it's o.k.-becaue they are done and they deserve something better and so God gives it to them.

Let's not forget though the times that God doesn't stand by. These are easy to miss because, we seldom know the details of people's lives who survive. Read survivor stories though, read through journals of those who's time wasn't done yet-who still had other things to do-and it will help.



But if that's the case... why do we also teach that some people have special privileges of protection and have priesthood practices to invoke those special privileges and faith promoting stories teaching us as much?

Because when God does intervene, we need to recoginze it. Otherwise, we begin to doubt His presence and deny His love. We become so swallowed up in life that we miss the details all together and make everything infinitely harder that God wants it to be for us.