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ScriptureLover

For Elihu - God is Certainly Described as a Man

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Paul Osborne  writes,

The Bible refers to God as our Father so I think it is reasonable to assume that they heard a male voice. Wouldn

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== I know nothing that would make me presume God is physcial. God is the creator and angels are creatures.

Why can't you just answer the question? Why are you dodging the fact that angels are both spiritual and physical beings, according to the Bible? You brought them up to prove a point, but now you're forced to go back, reevaluate, and change your argument.

== Jesus also helps understand "spirit", he said:

You're refusing to answer the question again, in an attempt to avoid the issue. You want to put all yoru eggs into this basket of God's "spirit" as proof He doesn't have a body, but it seems you really don't care how "spirit" was understood when these verses were first written. I can see why you're running from dfirect questions. The earliest Christians had no concept of spirit as you'd like to foist upon them, and fortunately for us, we have their testimonies. Allow me to inform you a little. Pay attention to teh quote by Tertullian who you obviously know nothing about if you think he adpopts yoru 21st century interpretation of "spirit."

Here is an excerpt from my article here: http://kevingraham.net/4aristobulus.htm

E. P. Sanders writes:

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Johnny -

We are the offspring because God created us.

Yes, and the word Genos indicates how. It's related to our word "genetics" incidentally, and that sure doesn't come from anything other then procreation does it? God in fact, really honestly did create us.....through birthing us.........our spirits.........we are HIS Children also, as is Christ. Christ is the Firstborn among many brethren however........but we are all of the family of God. Your previous statement is contradicted by the Bible..........

As James E. Talmage noted in his book The Articles of Faith, (p. 425)

Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (Colossians 1:15-19).

From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was "the firstborn of every creature" and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as "the firstborn from the dead," this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written "the firstfruits of them that slept" ("1 Cor. 15:20, see also verse 23); and "the first begotten of the dead" ("Rev. 1:5; compare "Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father, and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" ("Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses).

That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" ("Rom. 8:28-29). John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" ("Rev. 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May, 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said as before cited: "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn" ("D&C 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth" (verse 23).

There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of human kind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" ("Heb. 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim.

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ScriptureLover  writes,

Yes, and the word Genos indicates how. It's related to our word "genetics" incidentally, and that sure doesn't come from anything other then procreation does it? God in fact, really honestly did create us.....through birthing us.........our spirits.........we are HIS Children also, as is Christ. Christ is the Firstborn among many brethren however........but we are all of the family of God. Your previous statement is contradicted by the Bible..........

Men are not Christ's brethren by nature. Through adoption (justification) men can become sons of God.

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Hi Widdley. nice to see you again. Adoption is certainly one way we can become God's children, but that is not the meaning of the Greek Paul used in other places. Again, Johnny has ignored this.

Paul contends we are the very offspring of God.........

Acts 17:28 For 'In him we live and move and have our being,' as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'

The BDAG lexicon is fascinating as to what "offspring" means!

genos {ghen'-os} Meaning:  1) race 1a) offspring 1b) family 1c) stock, race, nation 1c1) i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people 1d) the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort 

Note this Johnny, the SAME descent or race............. The BDAG also emphasizes Genos means fundamentally - ancestral stock, descendant as well as common ancestry, family, relatives

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2Sa 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

Male or female voice?

Paul O

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Johnny -

Men are not Christ's brethren by nature. Through adoption (justification) men can become sons of God.

That is certainly one way yes, but that is not what Paul teaches in Acts as I have shown. You ignore that to press your adoption. Paul understood it through genetics (hence he used "GENOS" in the Greek.............)

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Kevin Graham  writes,

Why can't you just answer the question? Why are you dodging the fact that angels are both spiritual and physical beings, according to the Bible? You brought them up to prove a point, but now you're forced to go back, reevaluate, and change your argument.

I have not changed ... angels are spirits.

God, the Father, is pure spirit.

The earliest Christians had no concept of spirit as you'd like to foist upon them, and fortunately for us, we have their testimonies.

Do you have any scriptures to reveal what the testimonies reveal?

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ScriptureLover  writes,

Acts 17:28 For 'In him we live and move and have our being,' as even some of your poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'.

Is Acts 17:28 referring to some one that has been born again?

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It would be reasonable to conclude that they heard a male voice assuming it was an audible voice and the "voice" was not metaphorical. As in the "still small voice".

regards,

widdley

Yes, I agree. But Johnny tells us that God is neither male nor female and where he gets that doctrine is anyone's guess. He didn't get it from the Bible.

God has always manifested himself in a male manner - voice, appearance, and name.

It is certainly safe to say that God the Father is male in nature and that his Son is also male in nature.

Paul O

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ScriptureLover  writes,

That is certainly one way yes, but that is not what Paul teaches in Acts as I have shown. You ignore that to press your adoption. Paul understood it through genetics (hence he used "GENOS" in the Greek.............).

Those born again are spirit ... God is spirit.

John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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Men are not Christ's brethren by nature.

Through adoption (justification) men can become sons of God.

Can you support that first part by scripture?

And which person of God will they be adopted to?

Why must they be adopted if He created them?

If he created them entirely and exclusively, then would that make Him the Father?

If He is the Father by their creation, why does He have another person of God who is Father?

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Johnny -

Those born again are spirit ... God is spirit.

So, apparently since none of us are spirit, none of us are born again......nor has anyone ever been born again since all humans have bodies, and are not spirit as you contend God is..............what am I missing?

And again, Christ himself is Spirit, but that doesn't stop God from having a body of flesh and bone. Spirit is not the opposite of flesh and bone Johnny........ they are not diametrical on opposite sides of a pole. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

If the Spirit of God *dwells* in us, the spirit can and does inhabit a body, a form, in fact, billions of them.............yes?

(KJV) John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This verse apparently contradicts the LDS understanding of God as being an exalted man in yonder heavens. Lets take a little closer look.

The Greek

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Those born again are spirit ... God is spirit.

John 3

6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Christ was born to Mary who was mortal. Your quote suggests He is both flesh and spirit when born again (resurrected). Why would He be different from His Father?

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Johnny,

I believe that Christ has a perfect penis as part of his glorified resurrected body.

Will you deny this?

Yes or No?

Paul O

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1dc writes,

Can you support that first part by scripture?.

John 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1) And which person of God will they be adopted to?

2) Why must they be adopted if He created them?

3) If he created them entirely and exclusively, then would that make Him the Father?

4) If He is the Father by their creation, why does He have another person of God who is Father?

1) They are sons of God.

2) Men are adopted because the are not brethren by nature.

3) "Father" reveals that he created them ... it does not mean heavenly parents.

4) I don't understand your question ...

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ScriptureLover  writes,

So, apparently since none of us are spirit, none of us are born again......nor has anyone ever been born again since all humans have bodies, and are not spirit as you contend God is..............what am I missing?

Maybe you are missing being born again ... I would suggest you go to the nearest Christian Church ...

It has been fun but it is my bedtime ...

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== I have not changed ... angels are spirits. God, the Father, is pure spirit.

You have changed. You initially argued that God can't have form because he is spirit. You then brought in the angels to prove this. I have since proven that angels are both body and spirit, therefore God being "spirit" doesn't preclude him from being a body as well. Now you're refining your argument to "pure spirit."

OK, fine. Show me where John 4:24 says God is "pure" spirit or spirit "alone"(which is how you obviously interpret "pure"). This is a qualifier you added out of apologetic necessity, not because it is anything the Bible says. You're essentially recreating the biblical text to suit your arguments. Did you really think we wouldn't notice?

== Do you have any scriptures to reveal what the testimonies reveal?

I just showed you two from Origen and Tertullian. They both disagree with you. So now I'm forced to make an educated decision here. Should I trust what 21st century, English speaking Johnny Catholic has to say about John 4:24, or should I instead rely on second century, Greek speaking Tertullian and Origen? No offense Johnny, but I choose their explanation over yours. I also have Christian history scholars like Wilken and Casey backing me up. All you have are a bunch of Ecumenical quotes memorized, which hold no weight in this forum. You're arguing in a circle, from a begged question as to whether or not the Catholic Church has the right to dictate an infallible interpretation of the Bible, in spite of what the early Christians said.

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Johnny,

You say that God the Father is neither male nor female. Yet the Bible refers to God as a

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Widdley - Paul's sermon on Mars Hill is being taken out of context. In Acts 17, Paul is making a comparison between PAGAN IDOLS and the one living God.

Hi Widdley...........

And Paul is obviously contrasting the idols not having offspring, or being Gods, to the Father who is the Father of us all, since we are his offspring, yes? The living God, who creates, and begets children, us, since we are his "Genos" (genetics) his offspring. This is obviously the contrast between something dead made by men's hands, and not having the ability to produce offspring, and the living God who has the ability to produce offsring exactly as Paul states................yes?

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