For Elihu - God is Certainly Described as a Man

[Kevin Graham]

== I have read your rebuttal and I would not call it exhaustive.

You have not read it. What you read last year was a draft about 1/4 of what I have posted now. But from your earlier responses it seemed perfectly clear that you didn't even read that - you were offering responses moments after you got the link. In any event, if you can find a more exhaustive effort (using a wider variety of scholarly sources, to explain the biblical basis for God's anthropomorphic form) anywhere on the internet, then please, by all means, point it out to me. Until then, I'll go ahead and accept it as the most exhaustive article on the subject. There are many arguments against the LDS position that are being answered for the first time in this response. It is not a rehash of other LDS apologetic books which respond to the typical banal accusations by every Evangelical knuckledragger.

== Clearly the Bible does not reveal that our Heavenly Father looks like a man in that he has anthropomorphic form.

Wow, such indepth analysis and critical commentary. Who can argue with that?

It should be noted that Makarios, who attends an Evangelical seminary, and who used to post here regularly, said he is still working on a response to this. This was a year ago and he is still researching things out before attemping to post a worthy reply. Yet, you say it is "clear" that I'm wrong.

Ok. If you say so.

[johnny]

Kevin Graham  writes,

You have not read it. What you read last year was a draft about 1/4 of what I have posted now.

I am glad to hear you improved your earlier draft ...

Wow, such indepth analysis and critical commentary. Who can argue with that?

I noticed you did not provide anything to refute it ...

[Kevin Graham]

== I noticed you did not provide anything to refute it

Let's get this straight. I provide a detailed critique of the anti-Mormon argument and post it online.

You come along and declare that I am "clearly" wrong. No evidence, no analysis, no critical commentary. Just your say so.

If spending over two years to write over 200 pages of argumentum deserves a one sentence response like "clearly you're wrong," then what will it take to get you to offer something more substantial? At this rate I'll need to write an encyclopedia on the topic before you offer up a measly paragraph.

You haven't even read the articles I posted. Go bang heads with Makarios and try to come up with something worthy, or at the very least, less humorous.

[johnny]

Kevin Graham  writes,

You come along and declare that I am "clearly" wrong. No evidence, no analysis, no critical commentary. Just your say so.

It seems like with all your research into the matter you should be able to quickly refute my statement with a couple of scriptures.

You haven't even read the articles I posted. Go bang heads with Makarios and try to come up with something worthy, or at the very least, less humorous. 

I have presented some of my views in this post ... again with all your knowledge you could quickly refute what I have presented.

[Teo9969]

A. Attributes Describing God

[ScriptureLover]

So if God has no form, what does that do to Jesus Christ? Is he not God? And is not his form in that of a man, as the Genesis account declares?

[ScriptureLover]

Teo9969-

Why is God spirit? All that we can say is that this is the greatest most excellent way to be! This is a form of existence far superior to anything we know. It is amazing to meditate on this fact.

I disagree entirely. The "form" of God which Jesus Christ had in the flesh is what was crucified, and was able to suffer. The Atonement and hanging on the cross was possible precisely because God as Jesus Christ came in the "form" of a servant, and suffered here in thta body, thus being able to lift us up to the Father through Him. Jesus as physical body form could be crucified and thus save us ALL, whilst a spirit cannot. It is clearly inferior in some ways. Thank God God took form out of His love for us, to save us.

[johnny]

ScriptureLover  writes,

So if God has no form, what does that do to Jesus Christ? Is he not God? And is not his form in that of a man, a the Genesis account declares?

Do you think the Son is the Father?

Do you think the Son of God is THE God or the Father of all?

The Son of God has form but the Son of God is not THE God or the Father of all?

[Teo9969]

Jesus was FULLY God, and FULLY Man, like I've said a few times ont his forum, this is the greatest mystery/mircale in the bible. How a Man, who is fully Man, can also be FULLY God. Jesus had TWO natures in ONE person. And this is probably the same thing that God did when he came down to earth to walk with Adam and Eve. Hey, it could even be the same exact Body Jesus had when he was on earth .

[Paul Osborne]

The Son of God has a glorified body. God is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit. In no way is God in man's image

Yes, the Son of God has a glorified body. Does he use it? When he is in heaven does he converse with his Father vocally in the presence of angels? If the Son of God is standing bodily next to an angel; where is the Father

[Paul Osborne]

The Son of God has form but the Son of God is not THE God or the Father of all?

When Christ hung on the cross there is no doubt in my mind that Father in heaven wept. The Divine Man who ruled the universe watched his Son take a beating for you and me. And you have the audacity to say the Father is less than a Divine Man?

Paul O

[johnny]

Paul Osborne

[johnny]

Paul Osborne  writes,

And you have the audacity to say the Father is less than a Divine Man?

The Father is divine.

The Father is not a man.

[Teo9969]

Teo9969-

Why is God spirit? All that we can say is that this is the greatest most excellent way to be! This is a form of existence far superior to anything we know. It is amazing to meditate on this fact.

I disagree entirely. The "form" of God which Jesus Christ had in the flesh is what was crucified, and was able to suffer. The Atonement and hanging on the cross was possible precisely because God as Jesus Christ came in the "form" of a servant, and suffered here in thta body, thus being able to lift us up to the Father through Him. Jesus as physical body form could be crucified and thus save us ALL, whilst a spirit cannot. It is clearly inferior in some ways. Thank God God took form out of His love for us, to save us.

God took the form of Man so that he could die for our sins, however, for his death to be a valid sacrafice for our sins, and for him to TRUELY be in the same positions we are, to feel same things of temptaions, he had to be 100% Man. But because Jesus's job was to continually hold the universe together (Heb. 1:3) (even while he was on earth) he had to be fully God...is it easy to comprehend...no. But we all know Jesus could not have sinned because he was Fully God, however, if He weren't fully Man, his temptations wouldn't have been fully real either, and He would not be a sufficent sacrafice for us.

[Paul Osborne]

Paul Osborne

[ScriptureLover]

Johnny - The Son of God has form

There is your God as a man. It's that simple. The Son of God IS GOD.......yes?

[Paul Osborne]

Yes the Father talks. Moses did not reveal if the father had a female voice.

DITTO!!

I

[ScriptureLover]

Teo9969 - How a Man, who is fully Man, can also be FULLY God. Jesus had TWO natures in ONE person.

Yes, I as a Mormon certainly understand this. You need to now tell Johnny this. He doesn't believe God is a man.

[Paul Osborne]

Johnny, as far as I am concerned you turn the Father into nothing and make him into a fuzzy cloud or like snow on a bad TV channel.

Could you provide some quotes that I have said that would lead you believe this.

That would require to much cutting and pasting and my fingers are already too tired.

Don't you want to meet your Heavenly Father someday, in the hereafter? Christ will show him to you and you can meet him if you will just believe in him.

Paul O

[johnny]

ScriptureLover  writes,

There is your God as a man. It's that simple. The Son of God IS GOD.......yes?

The Son is "God" because he is divine but the Son is not the Father(THE GOD) ...

The Son of God has form.

God, the Father of Jesus, is not bound to a form.

[Paul Osborne]

God is not a mere mortal man according to Hosea, but he is Man of Holiness as he told Joseph Smith.

I would agree God is "man of holiness".

And how many hands and feet do the Father and Son have?

Do you ever hope to look into the eyes of your Heavenly Father who loves you?

PaulO

[johnny]

ScriptureLover  writes,

Yes, I as a Mormon certainly understand this. You need to now tell Johnny this. He doesn't believe God is a man.

ScriptureLover,

How are you using the word "God"?

Are you using "God" as meaning the Father of Jesus?

Are you using "God" as meaning the quality of being divine?

johnny

[Paul Osborne]

Paul Osborne

[Teo9969]

Just because God HAD a Body (Jesus's) while he was on earth, does not mean that God IS Man...God TOOK the FORM of Man while on earth, But his human nature died on the cross, while his divine nature lived on.

[ScriptureLover]

Johnny - The Bible does not reveal how the Son and Father converse when they are in the presence of angels.

Perhaps not, but the Bible absolutely *does* show how God talks to man and woman on the earth. Genesis 3:13 "Vay'omer YHWH........."

Lets look at this verb. Vay'omer. The reason we know its a verb (i.e. an action) is that it is a "vav conversive," which in Hebrew is understood because the vav is followed by the full vowel "patah" and a dagesh forte appears in the next Hebrew letter, in this case, the yod, which is the pronoun subject in this phrase. Hence, we have a verb, which means the subject which is YHWH, is doing the action, in this instance, he is "speaking." We translate this into English as "and-he-said," the "he" being the pronoun for YHWH, hence we have God speaking. In this instance, he is speaking to the woman. And he is speaking actual *words.* And she *hears* those words physically being spoken by God.