Let'S Say Grace

[CV75]

Since this subject hasn’t been discussed in quite a while (!):

The LDS Gospel Topics reference http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD says regarding Grace (in terms of returning to the presence of God), “To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).”

The doctrine of Christ is also often described with the same five points: faith, repentance, baptism by water and by fire, and enduring to the end. “Trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives,” to me, means the same as “enduring to the end,” perhaps with more modern phrasing.

My 2 questions:

1, since (according to the above) “obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ” only includes the five principles and ordinances, what might be some of the other points involved with receiving grace, other than faith, repentance, baptism by water and by fire, and enduring to the end? For example, I tend to add a 6^th, the involvement of the Lord’s authorized servants, since He mentioned it in 3 Nephi.

2, does anyone see a significant difference between what is meant in relation to receiving grace by the qualifiers “after all we can do”, “trying to follow the teachings of Christ for the rest of our lives”, and “enduring to the end?”

Thank you!

[KevinG]

1. We are judges as we judge others. Forgiving others is a requirement for us to receive forgiveness.

[CV75]

1. We are judges as we judge others. Forgiving others is a requirement for us to receive forgiveness.

Thank you! I was thinking, and maybe I mentioned it, that we receive grace as we demonstrate it toward others in various ways--the merciful receive mercy is another one.

[Vance]

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[ERayR]

1. We are judges as we judge others. Forgiving others is a requirement for us to receive forgiveness.

Forgiveness. Such a misunderstood concept.

[CV75]

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Would you say this is related to the Beatitudes where the higher law transcends, replaces or fulfils the former?

[mfbukowski]

Oh.

I thought this thread would be about prayers before meals.

Silly me. Nevermind.

[CV75]

Oh.

I thought this thread would be about prayers before meals.

Silly me. Nevermind.

It is!

...at least, that would be the graceful (gracious?) thing to say...

I just realized "Blessed are the thankful..." is not a Beatitude (hmmmm--wonder why?)

Edited September 10, 2012 by CV75

[Ahab]

Since this subject hasn’t been discussed in quite a while (!):

The LDS Gospel Topics reference http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD says regarding Grace (in terms of returning to the presence of God), “To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).”

The doctrine of Christ is also often described with the same five points: faith, repentance, baptism by water and by fire, and enduring to the end. “Trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives,” to me, means the same as “enduring to the end,” perhaps with more modern phrasing.

My 2 questions:

1, since (according to the above) “obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ” only includes the five principles and ordinances, what might be some of the other points involved with receiving grace, other than faith, repentance, baptism by water and by fire, and enduring to the end? For example, I tend to add a 6^th, the involvement of the Lord’s authorized servants, since He mentioned it in 3 Nephi.

We learn everything we need to do to become like God by receiving faith from God. Until then we don't know what to do, and once we know God expects us to do whatever it is that will help us to become like him. If we don't we're in trouble and thus we need to repent, otherwise we will suffer by remaining as we are and not becoming like him.

I think of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost as one of the first acts we do to show our faith, which not only helps us because we do it, but because of what it gives us... someone (the Holy Ghost) who helps us to know what our Father wants from us. We still learn everything else we need to do to become like (or more like) God by receiving faith from God, though. It all starts by learning what we should be doing.

2, does anyone see a significant difference between what is meant in relation to receiving grace by the qualifiers “after all we can do”, “trying to follow the teachings of Christ for the rest of our lives”, and “enduring to the end?”

Not really. It's all about what we need to be doing.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ahab

[CV75]

We learn everything we need to do to become like God by receiving faith from God. Until then we don't know what to do, and once we know God expects us to do whatever it is that will help us to become like him.

***

It's all about what we need to be doing.

Are you saying that any other thing (other than the five points) is based on faith and comes to us individually in any number of ways, and that “God expects us to do whatever it is that will help us become like Him”?

[Ahab]

Are you saying that any other thing (other than the five points) is based on faith and comes to us individually in any number of ways, and that “God expects us to do whatever it is that will help us become like Him”?

Yes... if by "any number of ways" you're referring to whatever way we receive faith from God.

Are you aware of our Lord's command to declare nothing but faith and repentance to others, generally speaking?

Well, what else is there, generally speaking?

What we all need is to find out what we need to be doing, and then either do it or repent.

[Vance]

Would you say this is related to the Beatitudes where the higher law transcends, replaces or fulfils the former?

Perhaps. Or it could be that the scribes and Pharisees weren't righteous at all.

The point is that a certain level of righteousness is required to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Even D&C 14:7 admits that "eternal life" is a gift (grace), even "after all we can do", so to speak.

[Cobalt-70]

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

From the grace perspective, it is Jesus' atonement alone that makes one more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise, we're all just as bad, since none of us can enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Cobalt-70]

Perhaps. Or it could be that the scribes and Pharisees weren't righteous at all.

The point is that a certain level of righteousness is required to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Even D&C 14:7 admits that "eternal life" is a gift (grace), even "after all we can do", so to speak.

Actually, according to the grace doctrine, no unclean thing can enter the kingdoms of heaven. There are no "levels of righteousness." It is all or nothing. And nothing we can do of our own volition will cleanse us, which is why we are totally dependent on the grace that comes from the atonement of Jesus, on condition of being born again and remaining faithful.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Actually, according to the grace doctrine, no unclean thing can enter the kingdoms of heaven. There are no "levels of righteousness." It is all or nothing. And nothing we can do of our own volition will cleanse us, which is why we are totally dependent on the grace that comes from the atonement of Jesus, on condition of being born again and remaining faithful.

No according to the Grace Doctrine as understood by the EVies it is that.

[Ahab]

From the grace perspective, it is Jesus' atonement alone that makes one more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise, we're all just as bad, since none of us can enter the kingdom of heaven.

If it were Jesus atonement alone then there would be nothing we could do to receive grace from God, and that isn't right.

What we all need is to enter into a contract (aka covenant) with God which stipulates that if we do such and such, God will give us his grace.

Hmm. Almost sounds too good to be true, doesn't it, but a covenant like that really does exist, and all we need to do is enter into that covenant.... and any other covenant God will offer us to receive additional blessings... like the oath and covenant of the priesthood, for example.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ahab

[CV75]

Yes... if by "any number of ways" you're referring to whatever way we receive faith from God.

Yes--I think we can get real specific for our individual situation from God through the Holy Ghost.

[CV75]

Perhaps. Or it could be that the scribes and Pharisees weren't righteous at all.

The point is that a certain level of righteousness is required to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Even D&C 14:7 admits that "eternal life" is a gift (grace), even "after all we can do", so to speak.

i'm pretty sure that's what He meant, but I think it also applies to the higher laws He taught (since He taught them!).

[CV75]

From the grace perspective, it is Jesus' atonement alone that makes one more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise, we're all just as bad, since none of us can enter the kingdom of heaven.

I think the Lord's atonement undergirds/overarches everything in the "five points" of the doctrine of Christ, and the scribes and Pharisees who opposed Jesus rejected al expressions of His atonement, gospel, doctrine, etc. as He taught them.

[CV75]

Actually, according to the grace doctrine, no unclean thing can enter the kingdoms of heaven. There are no "levels of righteousness." It is all or nothing. And nothing we can do of our own volition will cleanse us, which is why we are totally dependent on the grace that comes from the atonement of Jesus, on condition of being born again and remaining faithful.

I think this gets into resurrection as an expression of grace (salvation on one level) and exaltation as an expression of grace (on eh highest level). The definition in the OP is working with exaltation as salvation, but I think the degrees of glory are also expressions of grace, to the degree the beneficiary receives it. Of course God's grace is offered in a fulness, but His chidlren may not accept its fulness (the idea that we receive grace for grace until a fulness, if we choose to go that far).

[CV75]

No according to the Grace Doctrine as understood by the EVies it is that.

In line with the OP definition of Grace (the "LDS Grace Doctrine"), salvation in this case refers to exaltation, and we know that no unclean thing can be exalted.

[CV75]

Hmm. Almost sounds too good to be true, doesn't it, but a covenant like that really does exist, and all we need to do is enter into that covenant.... and any other covenant God will offer us to receive additional blessings... like the oath and covenant of the priesthood, for example.

This helps address question 1 about what else the doctrine of Christ includes.

[CV75]

From the grace perspective, it is Jesus' atonement alone that makes one ...righteous

So we apply His atonement by offering our "whole souls as an offering unto him (Omni 1:26)."

[CV75]

Thank you all for contributing to the list of things that are also included in the doctrine of Christ as it relates to the definition of Grace in the Gospel Topics resource. Just jotting them down before I lose track (don't stop!):

The involvement of the Lord’s authorized servants in our receiving and living the Gospel

Righteous judgment

Showing forgiveness, mercy, grace

The Beatitudes and the higher law

Showing gratitude

Leading a righteous life

Following the promptings of the Spirit, whatever they may bring

Applying the Lord’s atonement (offering our whole souls as an offering unto Him)

Edited September 10, 2012 by CV75

[Cobalt-70]

If it were Jesus atonement alone then there would be nothing we could do to receive grace from God, and that isn't right.

What we all need is to enter into a contract (aka covenant) with God which stipulates that if we do such and such, God will give us his grace.

Hmm. Almost sounds too good to be true, doesn't it, but a covenant like that really does exist, and all we need to do is enter into that covenant.... and any other covenant God will offer us to receive additional blessings... like the oath and covenant of the priesthood, for example.

But that is still a sola gratia theology. You may make a covenant with God, but that covenant is not what saves you. Absent grace, the covenant would save you no more than your telephone contract with Verizon. You do not merit salvation by making the contract. The contract does not erase your sins. But in making the contract, Jesus sees that you have humbled yourself and are willing to become his child, and therefore he gives his undeserved grace to you by atoning for your sins. It is the grace that saves you, not the contract.