63 replies to this topic

[cinepro]

"Right"?  

Edited by cinepro, 29 August 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Verum]

Saints Alive, on 28 August 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

It still amazes me when i tell someone I am LDS and they say "oh, you cant drink caffein" I always correct them. do you?

So I guess a more accurate statement would be that LDS members can't drink LARGE amounts of caffeine?

The only rationale for prohibiting the consumption of hot or iced coffee (but not apparently ice cream coffee as already discussed on this board) is not because of the hotness or coldness but instead because of its chemical contents, correct?  Which contents would be caffeine....

The church has officially advised "against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit."  This refers to a lot of things but definitely refers to the  caffeine contents in coffee.

Edited by Verum, 29 August 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Zakuska]

If Mormons don't drink Caffine, I wonder why my Wife served Pres. Monson and His Wife Coca-Cola's at the Sizzlers when she first moved to Salt Lake city?

Edited by Zakuska, 29 August 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Walden]

Verum, on 29 August 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

So I guess a more accurate statement would be that LDS members can't drink LARGE amounts of caffeine?

The only rational for prohibiting the consumption of hot or iced coffee (but not apparently ice cream coffee as already discussed on this board) is not because of the hotness or coldness but instead because of its chemical contents, correct?  Which contents would be caffeine....

The church has officially advised "against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit."  This is refers to a lot of things but definitely refers to the  caffeine contents in coffee.

The First Presidency has said that we should stay away from substances

I am an ex-member, but I would argue that the rationale for not drinking hot or cold coffee is not because of it's chemical contents. Rather, the rationale is simply that the drinking of coffee is prohibited by the Word of Wisdom. Period. Why the need to rationalize a directive that was given directly by revelation from God? No further revelation has been received regarding soft drinks, and therefore, the consumption of such is not prohibited by the LDS church, simple as that.

It's funny to me that the consumption of caffeine, as related to the Word of Wisdom, is so thoroughly debated within the church, as well as by critics and LDS experts alike, but the Word of Wisdom's directives to consume meat sparingly is never a stumbling block. I mean, if one is looking to rationalize the Word of Wisdom as some type of divine health regimen, the consumption of large amounts of meat is certainly a greater health risk than consumption of large amounts of caffiene (and anyone who says meat isn't addictive just hasn't tried my Santa Maria style tri-tip or my baby-back ribs ). I just never really hear anyone in the LDS church ponder their meat consumption with the same fanatacism as they do their caffeine consumption.

[Saints Alive]

Verum, on 29 August 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

So I guess a more accurate statement would be that LDS members can't drink LARGE amounts of caffeine?

The only rational for prohibiting the consumption of hot or iced coffee (but not apparently ice cream coffee as already discussed on this board) is not because of the hotness or coldness but instead because of its chemical contents, correct?  Which contents would be caffeine....

The church has officially advised "against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit."  This is refers to a lot of things but definitely refers to the  caffeine contents in coffee.

The First Presidency has said that we should stay away from substances

Maybe not necessarily... a counter example would be tobacco use. Generally you would say tobacco is unhealthy and banned because of the nicotine. However, nicotine in itself is not that harmful. It is the Tar, arsenic and myriad of other toxins that cause the majority of health problems. Nicotine by itself if about as harmful as caffeine and other mild stimulants. So perhaps it is not the caffeine in coffee and tea that is the reason for their prohibition as it is the other Chemicals (coffee has thousands of other chemicals) in those drinks.

[cinepro]

Zakuska, on 29 August 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

If Mormons don't drink Caffine, I wonder why my Wife served Pres. Monson and His Wife Coca-Cola's at the Sizzlers when she first moved to Salt Lake city?

And then there's the story of President McKay being at an event and a server apologizing that all their cups said "Coca Cola" on them, and President McKay responded that he didn't care what it said on the cup as long as there was Coca Cola in the cup.  

[JAHS]

According to Joseph Smith we are to avoid hot Coffee and hot tea.  Joel H. Johnson related that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

So it's the hot black coffee and hot black tea that the saints were not supposed to drink. In addition to that we have been advised by our modern-day leaders to not drink anything containing harmful drugs(including caffeine), in a way that would result in a habitual use of the drug (1972 letter from First Presidency).  So if someone is addicted to Coke they could be considered in violation of the Word of Wisdom.

[JAHS]

urroner, on 28 August 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I love Dr. Pepper Diet Cherry and I also love chocolate which does have caffeine.  I have yet to hear any of the Brethren tell the sisters that eating or drinking chocolate is against the WoW.  I rather doubt that any priesthood holder would ever attempt to do so and then not fear for his life.

So that is what I tell people when they inform me that the Church doesn't allow us to consume anything with caffeine.

Elder Mark E. Peterson once said:
"At no time has cocoa or chocolate been included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, and at no time has the Church said that cocoa is as harmful as coffee. Those who make these claims do so on their own responsibility, and obviously without knowing the facts of the matter" (Elder Mark E. Peterson, Patterns for Living [Bookcraft, 1962], pp. 235-37).

[Verum]

Walden, on 29 August 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I am an ex-member, but I would argue that the rationale for not drinking hot or cold coffee is not because of it's chemical contents. Rather, the rationale is simply that the drinking of coffee is prohibited by the Word of Wisdom. Period. Why the need to rationalize a directive that was given directly by revelation from God? No further revelation has been received regarding soft drinks, and therefore, the consumption of such is not prohibited by the LDS church, simple as that.

It's funny to me that the consumption of caffeine, as related to the Word of Wisdom, is so thoroughly debated within the church, as well as by critics and LDS experts alike, but the Word of Wisdom's directives to consume meat sparingly is never a stumbling block. I mean, if one is looking to rationalize the Word of Wisdom as some type of divine health regimen, the consumption of large amounts of meat is certainly a greater health risk than consumption of large amounts of caffiene (and anyone who says meat isn't addictive just hasn't tried my Santa Maria style tri-tip or my baby-back ribs ). I just never really hear anyone in the LDS church ponder their meat consumption with the same fanatacism as they do their caffeine consumption.

Walden, I agree for the most part,  but for some reason,I rarely find a Mormon when asked why they don't drink coffee simply state that its because God said they couldn't.  They usually go to great lengths to rationalize its prohibition by discussing the addictive, potentially harmful contents of coffee and tea ( which who could argue that they are not talking about caffeine).  Its not just members, as I said, the First President officially said that members should obstain from drinks that contain addictive substances (again, of course this includes a certain amount of caffeine as stated by many church leaders). Mormon's  are uncomfortable with people saying that they aren't allowed to drink caffeine, but they are usually the ones touting potentially harfmul effects of  large amounts of caffeine in coffee.

I am totally supportive of someone proudly proclaiming God's prohibition of coffee in the Word of Wisdom as their reasoning for abstaining from it, but when Mormon's try to go beyond that by trying to justify it through others reasons such as addiction and health, they can't get mad when the media listens to them.  I mentioned this in another forum but I will say it again...the specificity of the WOW can be quite absurd.

Let's say  I NEVER drink coffee BUT I have a diet that includes frequent consumption of the following:
Sugary(or even diet) soda per day - good, worthy -- even though it could eventually kill me.
Consume Artificial sweeteners - good, still worthy -- good, worthy
Trans fat - still good
all-you-can-eat meat buffet restaurants -- fine-and-dandy (in spite of WOW specific mention of eating meats sparingly..)

But If I DO drink coffee every now and then and DO NOT consume any of the items listed above, I am not temple worthy???

Edited by Verum, 29 August 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Verum]

Saints Alive, on 29 August 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

. So perhaps it is not the caffeine in coffee and tea that is the reason for their prohibition as it is the other Chemicals (coffee has thousands of other chemicals) in those drinks.

Like what? And if so, what about all the other harmful substances that are in the foods/drinks that we consume every single day that are slowly killing us?

Again, claiming that God prohibited the use of coffee is much more reasonable justification than claiming addictive/health reasons in my opinion as it inconsistent with what know about things that harm our bodies that are not listed in the WoW that we can still consume every day and still be temple worthy.

Edited by Verum, 29 August 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[cinepro]

JAHS, on 29 August 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

According to Joseph Smith we are to avoid hot Coffee and hot tea.  Joel H. Johnson related that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

Interesting, although that does make me wonder what the Pioneers were supposed to do with the coffee and tea that Brigham Young told them to bring.

[cinepro]

Verum, on 29 August 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

But If I DO drink coffee every now and then and DO NOT consume any of the items listed above, I am not temple worthy???

Yes.  Isn't it marvelous?

[JAHS]

cinepro, on 29 August 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Interesting, although that does make me wonder what the Pioneers were supposed to do with the coffee and tea that Brigham Young told them to bring.

Well of course back then the Word of Wisdom was considered more like guidelines rather than actual rules.

[Zakuska]

cinepro, on 29 August 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Yes.  Isn't it marvelous?

We know that ancient Israelites who served in the temple where to abstain from drinking wine prior to their duties in the temple.  I beleive it was at least 8 days before hand.  But then all the other days of the year there seems to have been no prohibitions.

[Stargazer]

The few times this has come up I have tried to explain that the WoW provision about "hot drinks" refers to specifically coffee and black tea, although beyond this individual LDS make their own determinations.  Such as, I drink caffeinated soft drinks, but my wife will not.

[The Grimace]

Walden has hit the nail on the head. Whenever Mormons attempt to justify their beliefs using secular reasoning, their beliefs fall apart. Yet it seems to be the vogue thing to do. Mormons rarely stop at, "I know not, save the Lord commanded me"

[jbarm]

Reminds me of the time that I was at a business conference and had someone ask if I was a Mormon.  I said I was, and the person responded back that it was good that I wasn't one of those really observant Mormons who wouldn't eat chocolate.  My friend was from Alabama and was relating his experiences with Mormons there.

Of course I remember when one of my LDS friends in Jr High would not eat chocolate for WoW reasons.

The Word of Wisdom is a good thing in general, but it tends to attract folks who LOVE rules like the Pharisees.  I tend to rank the WoW lower in importance than most gospel principles, such as honesty and charity.

jb

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Saints Alive, on 28 August 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

One thing that stuck out to me in the NBC special "Mormon in America" was the segment where they asked the wife and husband of the LDS family if they had ever had Coffee, Tea, or even a Coke. The wife said she had only tried coke once and the husband admitted to drinking the occasional Dr. Pepper (although he seemed ashamed to admit it).

Why didn't they correct the interviewer about drinking caffein?

It still amazes me when i tell someone I am LDS and they say "oh, you cant drink caffein" I always correct them. do you?

I don't have to. They know that I generally have 1 to 2 Dr Peppers a day. That is enough for them to know it is not an issue. I actually have not been asked that in years.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Walden, on 29 August 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I am an ex-member, but I would argue that the rationale for not drinking hot or cold coffee is not because of it's chemical contents. Rather, the rationale is simply that the drinking of coffee is prohibited by the Word of Wisdom. Period. Why the need to rationalize a directive that was given directly by revelation from God? No further revelation has been received regarding soft drinks, and therefore, the consumption of such is not prohibited by the LDS church, simple as that.

You know, I actually agree with you. I view the WoW as more of a guideline. Some harm and even death can come from not following it. How ever the biggest thing for me is that I believe it came from the Lord and I think he put things in there just to see if we would follow it. For instance Tea and Coffee.

[Verum]

cinepro, on 29 August 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Interesting, although that does make me wonder what the Pioneers were supposed to do with the coffee and tea that Brigham Young told them to bring.

Maybe BY was just testing their faith?  Very similar to the time when Joseph Smith preached a sermon on the word of wisdom and then rode through the streets smoking a cigar.