41 replies to this topic

[robuchan]

Have any of you had a spiritual experience, prompting, confirmation, whatever you want to call it, that has led you to believe something that you later came to believe was not true?  This can occur for apostates with a testimony of the church, but I believe it happens regularly for most of us.

Have you had a prompting you would be called to a position at church that never came to pass?  Have you ever given a blessing and made promises and felt spiritual confirmation of those promises, but which never came to fruition?  Have you ever sought after something through prayer, begging and pleading with God, and received a spiritual witness that you would receive that gift or that what you were asking for would occur?  Have you ever felt spiritually guided to do something or take a path which ended up not working out?  Have you ever felt the Holy Ghost tell you that for sure something would happen that didn't?

I have.  Several times.

The people close to me that I've talked this subject with have.  My opinion is that these sorts of things happen regularly to spiritually minded human beings.  

This is the way I make sense of it.  That time I prayed and asked for a job and had an overwhelming spiritual experience that I interpreted as a promise that God would help me get that job, only I didn't get that job?  Looking back at it, I recontextualized that spiritual experience with a different meaning.  Maybe the message was "I love you, keep working hard, and I'll make sure everything works out for you in the end, even if you don't get that job."  I don't deny the spiritual experience, but I do have to recontextualize.  Because it's obvious my initial interpretation was false.

Likewise, it's easy for me to reinterpret a spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith.  I don't call it confirmation bias.  I don't deny that it ever happened.  I don't think spiritual things are silly.  But I do think maybe the real interpretation was more along the lines of "I love you, keep seeking me, I'm pleased with your spiritual journey."

Edited by robuchan, 22 August 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[KevinG]

This very issue is why it is so important to be in continual communication with God.  I have been guilty of taking a single prompting and running with it without checking in along my way to see if I were still on the path I should be.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is about nurturing a continual relationship with God, not receiving isolated promptings or ideas then depending on the arm of the flesh to complete the calling.

Regarding your illustration.  It would be foolish to receive a prompting that the Book of Mormon was scripture then fail to read it, study it and pray for insights.

[robuchan]

KevinG, on 22 August 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Regarding your illustration.  It would be foolish to receive a prompting that the Book of Mormon was scripture then fail to read it, study it and pray for insights.

Of course it would.  But doing so wouldn't preclude the possibility of later understanding that original spiritual confirmation in a new and more correct light.

[Thunderfire]

One thing I have learned over the years is that whenever I am seeking confirmation for something I asked of God, I ask for an "outside" confirmation and more than one witness.

What this means is that while I already received the "burning in the bosom" as witness, a waking vision as witness, or a spiritual dream as witness, I still ask for an "outside" witness.  The reasoning is that the witness "inside" me can still be dictated on what I wanted in the first place.  Let me give an example:

For years I had been praying a specific request of God for ministry.  In June while in prayer I literally had a "waking vision" where the Lord said it was time for me to begin this work.  This waking vision was so real it could not be mistaken.  Yet I still asked for an "outside" witness so as to take my self will and desires completely out.  The NEXT day I got a email from someone I had never met in person, only knowing them from internet discussions.  She told me how she heard the audible voice of the Lord speak to her, giving her a scripture to share with me.  She also said that the "message" made no sense to her whatsoever and hoped it made sense to me.

Of course it did!  She had no clue as to what I had been praying, yet the message spoke directly to what I had asked God to confirm.  Armed with this "outside" confirmation (two or more witnesses)  I knew beyond any shadow of doubt that the waking vision was true and that I was to proceed.  So I have learned not to seek only ONE confirmation (especially if just a burning in the bosom), when I believe the scriptures speak of more than one witness being available to us.  Hope this helps!  

[Garden Girl]

robuchan, on 22 August 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Have you ever given a blessing and made promises and felt spiritual confirmation of those promises, but which never came to fruition?  Have you ever sought after something through prayer, begging and pleading with God, and received a spiritual witness that you would receive that gift or that what you were asking for would occur? Have you ever felt spiritually guided to do something or take a path which ended up not working out? Have you ever felt the Holy Ghost tell you that for sure something would happen that didn't?

Hello robuchan...
I've told this experience previously here on the board, so I ask for patience from those who have heard it... Many years ago, I had a dear family member that was going through a very difficult time emotionally and mentally because of circumstances in their life.  Although I was inactive at the time, I still prayed regularly... and so I prayed deeply and often for this individual.  Finally the situation became such that out of desperation I went into my room and fell on my knees and pleaded with the Lord to help this good person... as I prayed, suddenly a feeling of incredible peace flowed through my body and I heard the still, small voice... "All will be well."  That was it... All will be well.  But the peace I felt and the following sense of joy that filled my heart was unmistakeable...
In the ensuing months I'd ask... How long Father, How long??  But I could not deny the withness I had received and the feeling of peace and assuredness... so I did not lose faith... but I did ask, How long Father...  Finally, about two years later, when this person was finally stronger and standing tall, things started happening.  He finally was able to move ahead with some confidence... and he received a call that would change his life and career completely.  The result was that he was successful and embarked on a wonderful phase of his life and career that was exciting and satisfying.  Indeed, all was well.

I think back on that day when I prayed so fervently for the Lord's help, and then through the following months... I realize now that each month he grew stronger and stronger... and I know now that the Lord was healing him and preparing him for the blessings that would come... if my prayer had been answered right away, there would have been failure because the person wasn't strong enough for what the Lord had in store... in the Lord's good time all worked out well.

So... I'd not be too quick to say that something never came to pass... it may still be on the horizon for some reason... or even in the next life.  One the Spirit witnesses something will be, if we live for the blessing, it will come to pass... but it will come in the Lord's good time, and when we are ready for the blessing...

GG

[CASteinman]

robuchan, on 22 August 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Have any of you had a spiritual experience, prompting, confirmation, whatever you want to call it, that has led you to believe something that you later came to believe was not true?  

This has never happened.  

But something else has happened.  I have been instructed by personal revelation to do certain things and I have not done them.  This has always led to various forms of suffering in my life.

[robuchan]

CASteinman, on 22 August 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

This has never happened.  

But something else has happened.  I have been instructed by personal revelation to do certain things and I have not done them.  This has always led to various forms of suffering in my life.

I meant to say everyone but CAStein, because I knew you would say no to that question.

[CV75]

robuchan, on 22 August 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Have any of you had a spiritual experience, prompting, confirmation, whatever you want to call it, that has led you to believe something that you later came to believe was not true?

Perhaps the odds of this happening increase with the number of spiritual experiences, promptings, and confirmations someone seeks after and / or obtains. There has to be opposition in all things, and to whom much is given much is required. Perhaps the odds of spiritual-like but not “authentic” experiences, promptings, and confirmations also increase with the number someone seeks after, and the number someone seeks after may be a function of his understanding and appreciation of what they really are and what their value really is.

I have very few spiritual experiences, limited to the basic points of testimony (The Church, the Book or Mormon, the Christ), so I can’t think of any where I have changed my mind about what the intent of the message was. The only way I would do so would be a need to rationalize a stronger decision to set aside my dealings with the Church, the Book of Mormon, or the Christ.

I also have only a very few instances where I prayed over a decision and received a stupor of thought. But they are memorable.

I’ve had many promptings, but they are by far more for others’ benefit than my own, and situational, so once the job is done I move on. I try to write them in my journal as I am likely to forget about them.

I’ve also had many spiritual experiences that contribute to my sanctification, and these occur “here a little, there a little.” In fact, this is quite a continuous and ongoing process and by far the most common.

[pmccombs1]

robuchan, on 22 August 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Have any of you had a spiritual experience, prompting, confirmation, whatever you want to call it, that has led you to believe something that you later came to believe was not true?  This can occur for apostates with a testimony of the church, but I believe it happens regularly for most of us.

Hi, robucahn. As I continue my research of religious experiences (I got the idea from William James), I find that nearly all devout people have them, and some skeptical people besides.

Because of my exposure to various religious experiences, and those who experience them (including myself), I have come to interpret these experiences differently than what I have been taught by my own LDS faith. It is clear to me that these experiences can be very diverse and yet very powerful. People can have spiritual witnesses about quite opposite things and come to feel strongly about them. My most recent explorations were among the Catholics, many of whom had apostatized from Mormonism, typically by virtue of the more powerful and satisfying spiritual experiences they claimed to have found in their new faith.

I find that the language of the faithful is very similar, regardless of the content of belief. I accept that the quality of belief and the experiences of the believers are largely equivalent across diverse faiths. All successful religion is very good at producing a coherent worldview that can be entered into and defended in every particular, with adherents often looking for the unique aspects of their own spiritually and intellectually confirmed faith that can be touted as evidence for the one true and universal faith. Alas, there is no single truth common to spiritual witness, unless it is the truth that perhaps there is something mystical about the universe or about reality.

In the end, I believe these subjective experiences can only attest to subjective and not universal truths. Only we can know what we have felt and what it must mean; about the feelings of others, the best we can come up with are stories that label these as either compatible with our own, or somehow counterfeit.

I am most inclined to think, though, that spirituality is entirely attributable to human psychology, with my doubts about this centered on some anecdotes that simply can't be explained by mere psychology. But I feel the factual evidence is clearly stacked in the favor of psychological phenomena as the most likely hypothesis (even for those who see visions and so forth). I'm not a doubter of the sincerity or honesty of spiritual people. I doubt only of the objectivity of their experiences.

The faithful are, of course, free to discard this analysis which is understandably incompatible with most religious teaching. You know what you have felt and experienced, and what it means to you. Feeling and interpreting the spirit is a way of seeing; why should the seeing accept correction from the blind? I hope, though, that we make allowance for those who see differently.

[CASteinman]

robuchan, on 22 August 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

I meant to say everyone but CAStein, because I knew you would say no to that question.

Well.. really, it has never happened.  And I know of at least one instance where I wish it did.

[Duncan]

I got married and divorced and I don't know what to make of it all, if I was supposed to get married or if I was supposed to get divorced. It is amazing how other people make decisions that affect you life so I don't know what to make of other promises and blessings having gone through a divorce.

[KevinG]

Duncan, on 22 August 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

I got married and divorced and I don't know what to make of it all, if I was supposed to get married or if I was supposed to get divorced. It is amazing how other people make decisions that affect you life so I don't know what to make of other promises and blessings having gone through a divorce.

Obeying promptings is not a guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen.   It should give us confidence that we have done our best and can stand blameless before God at the judgement day.

[Duncan]

KevinG, on 22 August 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Obeying promptings is not a guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen.   It should give us confidence that we have done our best and can stand blameless before God at the judgement day.

what about other people like, Bishops, Stake and Mission Presidents telling you that they received revelation that this needs to happen now in your life, because that happened to me and so I don't know what to believe now about leaders and revelation for you-actually I do, I hear what they say and get my own confirmation but I don't know what to believe about my own circumstances if this is what was supposed to happen or God can't do what he promised me via blessings, Patriarchal and otherwise and so I dunno!

[Glenn101]

I have never received a "false" spiritual experience. The few that I have had were as real to me as the rising sun. They are why I am a "TBM".

All too often I have made up my mind before I pray what the answer should be. When I do so, I never get that unmistakeable feeling that I know the answer to be true. Never.

When I give blessings, I have found that those I was really prepared for, where I was spiritually in tune, I feel a tingling sensation run up and down my spine. When that happens, the substance of that blessing has invariably come to pass. Nothing earth shaking, yet, but nerver-the-less real.

Glenn

[KevinG]

Duncan, on 22 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

what about other people like, Bishops, Stake and Mission Presidents telling you that they received revelation that this needs to happen now in your life, because that happened to me and so I don't know what to believe now about leaders and revelation for you-actually I do, I hear what they say and get my own confirmation but I don't know what to believe about my own circumstances if this is what was supposed to happen or God can't do what he promised me via blessings, Patriarchal and otherwise and so I dunno!

Despite the advice and counsel of well meaning and human leaders you always have the responsibility to confirm their counsel with the Holy Spirit.

[CASteinman]

Duncan, on 22 August 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

I got married and divorced and I don't know what to make of it all, if I was supposed to get married or if I was supposed to get divorced. It is amazing how other people make decisions that affect you life so I don't know what to make of other promises and blessings having gone through a divorce.

Don't let the false beliefs of Calvinism and predestination sweep in out of that despair.   This is not that sort of thing.   We have all kinds of reasons that bad things happen that are not our fault ... or not mostly.

You are right that in that pit it looks awful how other people can do things to really mess up the promises and blessings.    I absolutely understand that feeling.  

But be of good cheer!  Jesus overcame it all.  All things work together for the Good of Them that Believe.  In the darkness this is hard to see sometimes but it is true.

[Duncan]

KevinG, on 22 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Despite the advice and counsel of well meaning and human leaders you always have the responsibility to confirm their counsel with the Holy Spirit.

now I know that! but when you're 22 and your bishop says "you want to get married right?, you can't be happy unless you're married" among other wonderful pieces of what I say is what God wants for you! ( I am not being argumentative just saying how it was for me back when)!

[CASteinman]

Duncan, on 22 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

now I know that! but when you're 22 and your bishop says "you want to get married right?, you can't be happy unless you're married" among other wonderful pieces of what I say is what God wants for you! ( I am not being argumentative just saying how it was for me back when)!

You are right.     I am sorry this happened to you.

[KevinG]

Duncan, on 22 August 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

now I know that! but when you're 22 and your bishop says "you want to get married right?, you can't be happy unless you're married" among other wonderful pieces of what I say is what God wants for you! ( I am not being argumentative just saying how it was for me back when)!

I see what you mean- I think it is up to leaders and parents to be very careful about separating their opinions from their counsel.  I am struggling to draw the right lines with my young adult children.  I guess we can file that under be careful what you say when you are in the Bishop's chair.

Nevertheless you will be blessed for your willingness to do the right thing even if others made mistakes in counseling you.  The blessings aren't always immediate.

[CASteinman]

KevinG, on 22 August 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Nevertheless you will be blessed for your willingness to do the right thing even if others made mistakes in counseling you.  The blessings aren't always immediate.

This.