344 replies to this topic

[why me]

Why are exmormons angry at the lds church? Now I can understand the anger if the lds church were proven false. For example, if a written manuscript were discovered belonging to Joseph Smith complete with rough drafts for the book of mormon. Or if a confessional letter from Joseph Smith was discovered detailing the fraud and why he did it. But no such documents have been found.

There is no proof that the lds church is false. It is all speculation. Now one can be disappointed about lds history etc. But anger? And one can be disappointed about speculative evidence but anger?

Any thoughts?

[robuchan]

I'm as friendly towards the LDS church as you can possibly be for one who has lost their belief in it.  I feel anger from time to time that the church dominated my life for so long.  I feel angry that I was tricked and that my parents were tricked and so on before them.  I feel angry that I sacrificed a lot of things to the church.  Sometimes with a return in the form of character development, but sometimes with no absolutely no return.  I feel angry that in my family of origin, people are judged on their standing in the church.  Wow, I sound angry.  I'm not.  This is just an explanation of why even someone like me who loves the church, still participates, hopes my children gain testimonies of it, etc, yet I still feel some anger from time to time on some things.

[why me]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

  I feel angry that I was tricked and that my parents were tricked and so on before them.

What does tricked mean? For example, if it came out that Thomas S. Monson knew that the church was false but kept the scam going, well, I can understand the being tricked sentiment. But...this hasn't happened.

Is being 'tricked' actually a speculative emotion based on speculation?

[why me]

I don't want this thread to become a WWE smack down thread. I hope that we can communicate respectfully.

[robuchan]

why me, on 19 August 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

What does tricked mean? For example, if it came out that Thomas S. Monson knew that the church was false but kept the scam going, well, I can understand the being tricked sentiment. But...this hasn't happened.

Is being 'tricked' actually a speculative emotion based on speculation?

Being tricked evokes anger in most situations.  I believe I was tricked by Joseph Smith.

[KevinG]

I have seen this in many organizations where a large commitment of time, talent and resources is invested.  I think there are several factors in the "anger" or not being able to "leave it alone".

1. Being Mormon is an investment and as such requires sacrifice.  If someone becomes disaffected that sacrifice can be seen as a "waste" or a poor investment.

2. When someone departs friends and especially family can see this a a form of divorce.  Well meaning people can be very confrontational about the perception that they are losing someone or that someone is abandoning them for eternity.

3. People personalize the conflict they have with the organization or their own family.  It can get ugly when someone is trying to justify their reasons for leaving and people on both sides can be guilty of saying things out of anger.

4.  Trying to justify no longer believing in something that was once a firm conviction can require "proof" that the original conviction wasn't what it was reported to be and the person leaving will start to believe or elevate any flaw or inconsistency in the church.

5.  If the root cause of the apostasy is that the person was abused or misused at the hands of dysfunctional family or leadership their experience of the church will be negative even if the behavior they experienced was in opposition to our doctrines.

This last one is the most pernicious.  We would see less anger if people were treated as our doctrines and practices say they should be and all knew our faithfulness was stronger than the cords of death.

[KevinG]

dup

Edited by KevinG, 19 August 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[happy]

why me, on 19 August 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Is being 'tricked' actually a speculative emotion based on speculation?

I really like this phrase. I think it is really powerful if people understood it.

[Glenn101]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Being tricked evokes anger in most situations.  I believe I was tricked by Joseph Smith.

Robuchan, can you explain how you were tricked by Joseph Smith?

Thanks,
Glenn

[Storm Rider]

To me as someone that is a skeptic at heart and struggles to retain faith I think most of this anger is misplaced. It has nothing to do with the LDS Church and everything to do with the individual involved.  When I review my life and the many things that have happened the only thing that ties it altogether, the salient ingredient in every experience, is me. It was not the Church, my parents, my family, my friends, my teachers, no one except me. I have to take responsibility for my choices, the resulting consequences, and the pain and joy of each choice.

If I once had faith that is my responsibility. If I lose my faith, that is my responsibility. It has nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with me. The only thing that changed in the experience is me and the degree of faith that I had. How can the Church have done it to me? It never stopped saying the same things, but I changed; I chose a different path.

I do not seek to offend, but so much of what I hear from ex-Mormons is really an example of people that just need to grow up and take responsibility for their own choices. If one seeks to be angry, look in the mirror. When responsibility is properly assumed, i.e. no more victim, then the anger dissipates and life moves forward.

[zerinus]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Being tricked evokes anger in most situations.  I believe I was tricked by Joseph Smith.

If I thought that I had been tricked by somebody, I would be angry at myself for allowing myself to be tricked. This is especially true in matters of faith. Nobody can force anybody to adopt a system of belief. If you do, the responsibility is entirely yours. Although it is possible to know for sure that Mormonism true, it is impossible to know for sure that it is not true. You still don't really know if Mormonism is true or not. You cannot really say that you have been tricked by anybody, except possibly by yourself. The Church has not altered its position any. It is declaring what it has always declared. The only one who has changed is you.

[Deborah]

Glenn101, on 19 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

can you explain how you were tricked by Joseph Smith?

An interesting question since Joseph Smith has been dead long before any of us were born. I can understand feeling tricked by one's parents into believing something but even then belief is a choice. I wonder if people of other religious belief feel tricked when they stop believing in God. I think the only place I've seen "tricked" and "deceived" used is when one leaves the LDS Church. I certainly didn't feel tricked when I left the church I had been attending before becoming Mormon, even though I felt what they taught was not correct. If I were to stop believing in the church now I couldn't blame it on Joseph Smith deceiving me, because I chose to believe him.

[robuchan]

Glenn101, on 19 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Robuchan, can you explain how you were tricked by Joseph Smith?

Thanks,
Glenn

He said he saw Angel Moroni, gold plates, First Vision, etc.  I believed him.

[robuchan]

Deborah, on 19 August 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

An interesting question since Joseph Smith has been dead long before any of us were born. I can understand feeling tricked by one's parents into believing something but even then belief is a choice. I wonder if people of other religious belief feel tricked when they stop believing in God. I think the only place I've seen "tricked" and "deceived" used is when one leaves the LDS Church. I certainly didn't feel tricked when I left the church I had been attending before becoming Mormon, even though I felt what they taught was not correct. If I were to stop believing in the church now I couldn't blame it on Joseph Smith deceiving me, because I chose to believe him.

It doesn't matter if he's dead or not.  He conned everyone, and I was part of the con.

[Storm Rider]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

He said he saw Angel Moroni, gold plates, First Vision, etc.  I believed him.

You believed Joseph Smith or you believed when God told you it was true?

Edited by Storm Rider, 19 August 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[why me]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

He said he saw Angel Moroni, gold plates, First Vision, etc.  I believed him.

I can understand this if this was the end of it. But we have 11 other people who also saw the plates, and out of those, three saw an angel. Were they tricked? If so, it must have the greatest trick done at that time in human history.

[selek1]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if he's dead or not.  He conned everyone, and I was part of the con.

In YOUR opinion- but the matter is by no means "settled"- let alone "proven".

[why me]

robuchan, on 19 August 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if he's dead or not.  He conned everyone, and I was part of the con.

This is speculative emotion since it cannot be based on fact. We have no proof that he conned people into mormonism, including the 11 witnesses who would then be the focus of the greatest con in human history.

[why me]

selek1, on 19 August 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

In YOUR opinion- but the matter is by no means "settled"- let alone "proven".

I think that one problem for exmormons is the knowledge that proof is lacking. Thus, the anger because they must base their opinion on speculation with the hope that their opinion is correct.

[why me]

Deborah, on 19 August 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

If I were to stop believing in the church now I couldn't blame it on Joseph Smith deceiving me, because I chose to believe him.

This is true up to a point. Did you really choose to believe or did you receive a spiritual experience that you couldn't deny?