96 replies to this topic

[Tacenda]

What think ye of this statement?  It seems to be the wedge that is between our church and the rest of the christian world....

Thus, by denying that Jesus Christ is the ONLY High Priest of the New Covenant, Mormons make many other humans mediators between them and God. And this is blasphemy against Christ. Mormons have accepted the humans whom their leaders appointed priests as mediators between them and God. They have been deceived to refuse Christ as the ONLY Savior.

From this website: On the page there is a conversation between Steven who is LDS and this man from The Disciples of Jesus Christ....which one makes the better argument?  

http://jdisciple.wor...ormon-theology/

[bluebell]

I didn't look at the website, but that idea that Christ employs (for lack of a better term) mediators for Him is right in the NT, so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Besides that, Hebrews 5 discusses the duties and calling of high priests, so even the NT doesn't support the idea that Christ is the only one.

[Bill Hamblin]

I'd like a citation where the Bible claims that Christ is the "ONLY High Priest."

What it actually says is that Christ is the "great high priest" (Heb. 4:14), which is precisely what LDS believe.

[Bill Hamblin]

One of the earliest post-New Testament Christian documents, the Didache has this to say:

“Thou shalt take the firstfruit of the produce of the winepress and of the threshingfloor and of the oxen and sheep, and shalt give them as firstfruits to the prophets (profetais), for they are your high priests (archiereis).” (Didache 13.3)

Clearly the earliest Christians believed in prophets who were "high priests" (plural).

[longview]

this link is under control of the anti-mormon. Stephen probably will point out some misrepresentations.

[Bill Hamblin]

It is also worth noting that the fourth century Apostolic Constitutions 7.29.1 paraphrases this passage in the Didache in and interesting way.

The Didache 13.3 reads:

Quote

"So when you take any first fruits of what is produced by the winepress and the threshing floor, by cows and by sheep, you shall give the first fruits to the prophets, for they are your high priests"

The Apostolic Constitutions 7.29.1 rewrites this passage as follows:

Quote

All the first-fruits of the winepress, the threshing-floor, the oxen, and the sheep, shalt thou give to the priests

I have bolded the part of the Didache that is preserved, and underlined the part that is taken out.  Note how the prophets and high priests have been removed from the text.

Edited by Bill Hamblin, 17 August 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Tacenda]

longview, on 17 August 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

this link is under control of the anti-mormon. Stephen probably will point out some misrepresentations.

It's totally obvious that it's anti, my question is do I need to worry about my salvation? Do we all need to worry?  I'm a struggling LDS who got sideswipped by a barage of anti sentiments.  But is there a reason for it?  Do we need to take a better look or if you all here have an answer I'd like to hear and keep my footing in the church.  And btw, I didn't serve a mission and I'm not a scholar of scripture as if you didn't already know.  I come to the defenders humbly asking these questions, I'm not anti, just a person that feels like a deer in headlights.  And there is no other place like the MD&D board!

Edited by Tacenda, 17 August 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Tacenda]

Bill Hamblin, on 17 August 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

It is also worth noting that the fourth century Apostolic Constitutions 7.29.1 paraphrases this passage in the Didache in and interesting way.

The Didache 13.3 reads:


The Apostolic Constitutions 7.29.1 rewrites this passage as follows:


I have bolded the part of the Didache that is preserved, and underlined the part that is taken out.  Note how the prophets and high priests have been removed from the text.

I do and appreciate your pointing to this.

[CASteinman]

Tacenda, on 17 August 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

It's totally obvious that it's anti, my question is do I need to worry about my salvation? Do we all need to worry?

Not really - depending upon how you mean that.  Your salvation  from death is more or less assured.  What you should be concerned about is entrance into the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation.  You have already said you are not interested in exaltation so your focus should be on entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.

Tacenda, on 17 August 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Do we need to take a better look or if you all here have an answer I'd like to hear and keep my footing in the church.

It looks to me like this is a case of a so-called "Christian" establishing their own word as the word of God.  There is no reason to believe that Jesus is the only High Priest.  Indeed, since HE told Joseph Smith to call High Priests there is good reason to believe He has no problem with it.

[teddyaware]

If Christ is the only High Priest after the order of Melchizedec permitted to hold that priesthood, then what right did Melchizedec have to hold it?

[teddyaware]

Tacenda,

One point as an addendum to my above comment: The folks who bring up all these anti-mormon arguments proudly admit there haven't been any iving apostles and prophets to guide the church for almost two thousand years. Therefore, most anything these antagonists come up with to counter the claims of the LDS Church is nothing more than assumption, supposition, speculation or private interpretation. It's to aviod controversies like this one that the Apostle Paul declared the following in Ephesians 4:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
¹²For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
¹³Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
¹⁴That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[Pa Pa]

Tacenda, on 17 August 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

What think ye of this statement?  It seems to be the wedge that is between our church and the rest of the christian world....

Thus, by denying that Jesus Christ is the ONLY High Priest of the New Covenant, Mormons make many other humans mediators between them and God. And this is blasphemy against Christ. Mormons have accepted the humans whom their leaders appointed priests as mediators between them and God. They have been deceived to refuse Christ as the ONLY Savior.

From this website: On the page there is a conversation between Steven who is LDS and this man from The Disciples of Jesus Christ....which one makes the better argument?  

http://jdisciple.wor...ormon-theology/

The Bible does not teach Christ is the only High Priest...but "our High Priest forever"...

[theplains]

bluebell, on 17 August 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Besides that, Hebrews 5 discusses the duties and calling of high priests, so even the NT doesn't support the idea that Christ is the only one.

This is a reference to the Old Testament priestly system - where there was only one high priest at a time. Only he could
enter the Holiest of Holies on the Day of Atonement.

Regards,
Jim

[teddyaware]

Here's a point of interest for you: We know that there is only one Jesus Christ, yet everyone who joins the Church is commanded to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ at baptism. We are even told that at the last day the Lord will call us by that name. So we can see the Lord is willing to share with us all things he himself possesses, among them both his Royal Priesthood (1 peter 2:9)and even his very name:

And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.
10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

[ANACO]

Tacenda, on 17 August 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

What think ye of this statement?  It seems to be the wedge that is between our church and the rest of the christian world....

Thus, by denying that Jesus Christ is the ONLY High Priest of the New Covenant, Mormons make many other humans mediators between them and God. And this is blasphemy against Christ. Mormons have accepted the humans whom their leaders appointed priests as mediators between them and God. They have been deceived to refuse Christ as the ONLY Savior.

From this website: On the page there is a conversation between Steven who is LDS and this man from The Disciples of Jesus Christ....which one makes the better argument?  

http://jdisciple.wor...ormon-theology/

Tacenda, I suggest you quit worrying about these anti-mormon sites and start studying up on your newly-found Mormon Faith. This was the counsel given by the Lord to Hyrum Smith as recorded in D&C 11.21. Once you know His word, you can go forth confidently through life being able to recognize truth from error.

Regarding the Priesthood office of High Priest: The Priesthood belongs to the Lord. It's His Priesthood. The Priesthood at one time was called after the Order of the Son of God. But to reverence his name, it's called the Melchizedek Priesthood, named after one of the greatest High Priests who magnified his calling. This is explained in the Book of Mormon in Alma Chapter 13. Melchizedek was the King of Salem which later was called Jerusalem. He called his people to repentance, and they did so which brought peace to them, thus Melchizedek was called "the prince of peace."

This is why the Priesthood was called after the Order of the Son of God. Jehovah, or Christ, was also called The Prince of Peace. See Isaiah 9:6. This is what every holder of the Priesthood should be doing - declaring righteousness, obedience, faith on the Lord, etc. - the very thing Our Lord and Savior did. This is his Order. This Order is conferred by the Son of God, upon or to his righteous Sons of God, us his children. And by doing his works, we become like him, by participating in the salvation of his children and thus qualify, through his mercy, to inherit the blessings prepared by Him. Thus our Creator, Jesus Christ is the High Priest over all, with a calling in His Priesthood called High Priest, allowing his sons to represent him and to do his works - after His Order.

Do not worry about the Apostolic Constitutions etc, being quoted here.
Study the LDS Scriptures. Go to www.LDS.org/scriptures and search by subject matter, if need be.

Regards

Edited by ANACO, 17 August 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Tacenda]

teddyaware, on 17 August 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Here's a point of interest for you: We know that there is only one Jesus Christ, yet everyone who joins the Church is commanded to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ at baptism. We are even told that at the last day the Lord will call us by that name. So we can see the Lord is willing to share with us all things he himself possesses, among them both his Royal Priesthood (1 peter 2:9)and even his very name:

And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.
10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

I believe that for sure.  But the counter argument that the christians are saying is that only one is a holder of the Melchizedek priesthood according to Hebrews.

• 
  
• 7:1-2 he was called 'king of righteousness' and 'king of peace'
  
• 7:3 his genealogy is unknown - 'without beginning of days',' without end of life', 'a priest forever'
  
• 7:4-10 he was greater than Abraham, and therefore greater than Levi (the priestly tribe)
  
• 7:13 he was from a different tribe than the priests of Israel
  
• 7:16 his role as priest was on the basis of his conformation to regulations about ancestry

[altersteve]

The Bible also says Jesus is an apostle, but I doubt other Christians would deny that He's the ONLY apostle.

[teddyaware]

Tacenda,

I ask my first question again -- If Jesus is the only Melchizadek Priesthood holder, why then did the Old Testament prophet Melchizedek hold it before the Lord made his appearance in the flesh? After all, this priesthood is named after this man Melchizedek.

These enemies of the Church are not speaking as prophets; they don't believe in living prophets. Their opinions have no claim of apostolic authority -- they are just opinions and suppositions, thats all. Living prophets are needed to settle such controveries, as Paul said.

[volgadon]

Bill Hamblin, on 17 August 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

One of the earliest post-New Testament Christian documents, the Didache has this to say:

“Thou shalt take the firstfruit of the produce of the winepress and of the threshingfloor and of the oxen and sheep, and shalt give them as firstfruits to the prophets (profetais), for they are your high priests (archiereis).” (Didache 13.3)

Clearly the earliest Christians believed in prophets who were "high priests" (plural).

Archiereus is still an important rank and title among the Eastern Orthodox.

[urroner]

Some questions:
1. Were the duties of the high priests of the OT equivalent to the duties of the high priests in the Church today?

2. Were the high priests in the OT, especially before 600 B.C. also part of the Melchizedek priesthood of that time?

3. What was the role of the MP before the Exile as opposed to it's role after the Exile, especially with regards to the temple?