9 replies to this topic

[inquiringmind]

The following are two examples of what I believe most here would agree are pius frauds.

Quote

The Book of the Law of the Lord is a book accepted as scripture by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite). It is alleged to be a translation by the Strangite prophet James Strang of the Plates of Laban, originally acquired by Nephi, a leading character in the early portion of The Book of Mormon.^[1] Strang claimed to have translated them using the Urim and Thummim, which was used by Joseph Smith to translate The Book of Mormon.
However, the Book of the Law of the Lord bears little resemblance to the material described in The Book of Mormon as being engraved on the Plates of Laban.^[2] Rather, Strang's book comprises a rather elaborate constitution for a Mormon kingdom, in which the Prophet-leader of the Latter Day Saint church equally rules as king over God's kingdom on earth. It also contains various other revelations and teachings unique to Strang

http://en.wikipedia....Law_of_the_Lord

Quote

The Donation of Constantine (Latin, Donatio Constantini)^[1] is a forged Roman imperial decree by which the emperor Constantine I supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the Pope. During the Middle Ages, the document was often cited in support of the Roman Church's claims to spiritual^[2] and temporal authority. Italian Catholic priest and humanist Lorenzo Valla is credited with first exposing the forgery with solid philological arguments in 1439-1440,^[3] although doubts on the document's authenticity had already been cast by this time. Scholars have since dated the forgery between the eighth and ninth centuries.

http://en.wikipedia...._of_Constantine

What interests me is the question of how people who believe in God could lie about such things.

Also interesting to me is the fact that Strang died three years before Darwin wrote his "Origin of Species," at a time when it would seem to me to have been much harder not to believe in God than it is today (and the Donattion of Constantine was centuries before Strang.)

Any thoughts on how people who believe in God are able to justify lying for Him (or how they could possibly believe He needs them to)?

Edited by inquiringmind, 16 August 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Valentinus]

inquiringmind, on 16 August 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

The following are two examples of what I believe most here would agree are pius frauds.


http://en.wikipedia....Law_of_the_Lord


http://en.wikipedia...._of_Constantine

What interests me is the question of how people who believe in God could lie about such things.

Also interesting to me is the fact that Strang died three years before Darwin wrote his "Origin of Species," at a time when it would seem to me to have been much harder not to believe in God than it is today (and the Donattion of Constantine was centuries before Strang.)

Any thoughts on how people who believe in God are able to justify lying for Him (or how they could possibly believe He needs them to)?

Good question. This is dependent upon the individual's moral standards concerning authenticity, honesty and integrity.

Edited by Valentinus, 17 August 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[CASteinman]

I don't have any idea.  But I bet its different from person to person.

[Buzzard]

Simple: Short term thinking (riches and power now), vs. long term thinking (eternal reward and self respect). Same reason why anyone with a testimony would throw away their family and reputation for the short term thrills of an adulterous relationship.
To a certain extent, the same process could be applied to any transgression.

[why me]

I don't think that there is any such thing as a pious fraud. A fraud is a fraud. Nothing pious about it. Some critics claim that Joseph Smith was involved in a pious fraud. Impossible. Either he was a prophet or a fraudster without the pious.

Edited by why me, 16 August 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Storm Rider]

I have to agree with WhyMe on this. I think that these types of things are created primarily out of pride; to gain power over others or to gain their praises. A pious man/woman does not seek to gain control over others and once called to such office often crys often to the Lord over the heavy responsibility that is carried, pleads for guidance, and acknowledges his weaknesses.

I have met some leaders that are highly qualified, very skilled, and wonderfully gifted...and they know it. They do a pretty good job, but arrogance is a rather common companion for them. On the other hand, I have met leaders that are gifted, but as humble as can be. I believe one is walking full time with the Spirit and the other is playing with fire and has many things yet to learn.

[Valentinus]

why me, on 16 August 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

I don't think that there is any such thing as a pious fraud. A fraud is a fraud. Nothing pious about it. Some critics claim that Joseph Smith was involved in a pious fraud. Impossible. Either he was a prophet or a fraudster without the pious.

Absolutely agreed.

[alter idem]

If someone knows they are lying, it is fraud.  If someone is delusional, that could explain them not knowing they are lying--but I would not call this 'pious fraud'.  I agree with those above.  IMO 'pious fraud' is an oxymoron.  "Delusional fraud" is a possibility, but I think it's usually just fraud.

[cinepro]

why me, on 16 August 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

I don't think that there is any such thing as a pious fraud. A fraud is a fraud. Nothing pious about it. Some critics claim that Joseph Smith was involved in a pious fraud. Impossible. Either he was a prophet or a fraudster without the pious.

http://en.wikipedia....i/False_dilemma

[robuchan]

Is Santa Claus a pious fraud perpetuates on our kids?