Jump to content


A Fictional Book Of Mormon?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
328 replies to this topic

#41 Bart Burk

Bart Burk

    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 406 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:57 PM

View Postmfbukowski, on 16 August 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

What exactly has all this BOM geography stuff have to do with the question at hand?

Have we abandoned the original discussion?

I would think belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon is required.  If one rejects the historicity of the BOM you might as well be talking about The Lord of the Rings.  Nobody believes Tolkien was a prophet.  The promises in the BOM would be meaningless if Nephites are fictional.

#42 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,272 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostBart Burk, on 16 August 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I would think belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon is required.  If one rejects the historicity of the BOM you might as well be talking about The Lord of the Rings.  Nobody believes Tolkien was a prophet.  The promises in the BOM would be meaningless if Nephites are fictional.
But WHERE all this happened is a secondary question to IF it happened at all.  That seems totally obvious to me.  If the BOM is fictional (I do not believe it is fictional) what supposed geography fits the story is irrelevant.

It's like arguing if Santa Claus' beard is really white or not, or if his suit is red or maroon.  That would truly be a waste of time.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#43 Bart Burk

Bart Burk

    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 406 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:13 PM

View Postmfbukowski, on 16 August 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:


But WHERE all this happened is a secondary question to IF it happened at all.  That seems totally obvious to me.  If the BOM is fictional (I do not believe it is fictional) what supposed geography fits the story is irrelevant.

It's like arguing if Santa Claus' beard is really white or not, or if his suit is red or maroon.  That would truly be a waste of time.

I agree completely. I made a rather innocent throw-away statement on geography and it really was blown up. It must be a hot button issue around here.

#44 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,272 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:16 PM

View PostBart Burk, on 16 August 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

I agree completely. I made a rather innocent throw-away statement on geography and it really was blown up. It must be a hot button issue around here.
With some posters it is the ONLY button.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#45 cursor

cursor

    neutron scissors

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 651 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

View Postmfbukowski, on 16 August 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

What exactly has all this BOM geography stuff have to do with the question at hand?

Have we abandoned the original discussion?

No, of course not. The thread title is, "A Fictional Book of Mormon?" That assumes no real people, and no real world location.

The initial paragraph of the referenced blog suggests that "some Latter-day Saints insist that the Book of Mormon can be inspired fiction and still be scripture." I say this is unnecessarily short-sighted (for those who might so believe). I suggest that for serious thinkers ... even for those that modestly dig; a cerebral and a spiritual connection with the codex (a true ancient record, written by real and specific cultures) can be realized ... in a degree which is NOT possible if it only exists as fiction. Accurately identifying ancient cultures and related geography works towards that end.

#46 cursor

cursor

    neutron scissors

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 651 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

View Postmfbukowski, on 16 August 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

With some posters it is the ONLY button.

???

This is a discussion forum ... right?. When gospel principles are bought up, like the possibility that it's acceptable that the Book of Mormon is simply inspired fiction, we [try to] responsibly respond. Right? <shrug> Maybe someday I'll get to 13K+ posts and get a commesurate degree of respect. I'm just a newby, after all.

Edited by cursor, 16 August 2012 - 04:39 PM.


#47 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,772 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostBill Hamblin, on 16 August 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

I see.  God was able to reveal the Book of Mormon to JS, but forgot to tell him it was fiction.
For some reason I feel you're not being entirely serious here.  Just a tad of sarcasm, maybe?

In what way do you think God revealed the Book of Mormon to Joseph?  I mean, in what way are you using the word "reveal".

You know he showed him where the plates were through Moroni and the gift of God given through him, but in what other way did God reveal the Book of Mormon to him?

I think you know as well as I do that the words Joseph used were the best words he could come up with given his own knowledge of the English language and what God inspired him to see.  God works with us as we are, using the language(s) that we are already familiar with, and when we're inspired we're using our own vocabulary and manner of speech which often includes some idiosyncratic phrasing.  That's why we need the Holy Spirit to help us understand scripture.  It's not that the words are incorrect, necessarily, although sometimes they may be.  People often say things while meaning something other than what their words actually mean.

Now please confirm you already know this stuff, Bill.  You're scaring me a little into thinking I shouldn't be learning from you.

p.s.  Sometimes I'm being playful when people seem to be taking me too seriously.

Edited by Ahab, 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM.

I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#48 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,272 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM

View Postcursor, on 16 August 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

???

This is a discussion forum ... right?. When gospel principles are bought up, like the possibility that it's acceptable that the Book of Mormon is simply inspired fiction, we [try to] responsibly respond. Right? <shrug> Maybe someday I'll get to 13K+ posts and get a commesurate degree of respect. I'm just a newby, after all.
I didn't mean to offend you- perhaps it would be relevant to show why a discussion of where the BOM MIGHT have occurred even if it IS fiction is relevant.
I just don't see why it is.  I was just raising the question and didn't mean to offend anyone.

And in fact I am not proud of having made 13k posts- it only shows how much time I have....... devoted...... to this board- probably way too much.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#49 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,772 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostTacenda, on 16 August 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Thanks for providing this, it's really plain and easy to read over!
Yes, but is what he saying true or not?  That's the question you should concern yourself with primarily, I think.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#50 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,272 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:08 PM

When I became a member, I was also looking into the Baha'i faith which was founded by one who called himself a "prophet" named Baha'u'llah, who believed he had received a body of revelation which became the origins of that faith.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Bahá'u'lláh

Some Baha'is in fact think that Joseph Smith might have been a prophet

I would wonder if any here might think that Baha'u'llah's writings are "fiction" or if they might offer value.  I think they do offer spiritual insight and can be valuable writings.   I of course do not accept him as a prophet.

I think Ben's earlier comments are highly relevant here.  I think almost any religious writings can offer value and insight even if we do not regard them as scripture.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#51 Tacenda

Tacenda

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Limited
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,248 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

View PostAhab, on 16 August 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Yes, but is what he saying true or not?  That's the question you should concern yourself with primarily, I think.

Well I haven't done thorough studying on the subject of Mesoamerica being BOM lands and I'm trying to keep an open mind.  And when something is easy to read and not over my head (like this article) I'm all over it.

And there is something to be said for someone like cursor's father, John Sorensen to have spent most of his life studying and figuring out a place for the BOM, especially when so much points to it not happening in NY.

If it had, wouldn't they have excavated?  Where is the evidence if it had?  But like Bart, and I may be presuming his thoughts here, the teachings of several of the early church leaders have expressed it to be in NY or if it doesn't look that way they say one shouldn't go looking for other places.  But I think most people like evidence to base things on, therefore all the research thus far that's been produced by FARMS and FAIR, etc.

Edited by Tacenda, 16 August 2012 - 05:56 PM.

middlewayer

#52 Pahoran

Pahoran

    Creates Beasts Of The Earth

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,775 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostAnalytics, on 16 August 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

In his blog entry, Hamblin exhibits black-and-white thinking.  Joseph Smith was either a true prophet, a liar, or a lunatic.  What is interesting is that the Book of Mormon itself also expresses black and white thinking.

The Book of Mormon says,


While Hamblin’s black-and-white thinking is used to map a gray Book of Mormon into the liar/lunatic camp, the Book of Mormon’s black-and-white thinking is used to map itself into the godly camp; if one concludes that the Book of Mormon isn’t an accurate translation of an authentic ancient manuscript that is okay—the book invites and entices goodness, therefore it must be from God.
Umm, problems with your interpretation:
  • Mormon's sermon recorded by Moroni isn't talking about the Book of Mormon.  It was teaching Mormon's contemporaries to be thoughtful and discerning when listening to the many competing voices around them.
  • Mormon doesn't say anything equivalent to your "exegesis."  His argument is not that it's okay to ignore questions about authenticity of a purported revelation, but rather, that godly influence is evidence of divine origin, and hence authenticity.  You have got it exactly backwards.
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest.  (2) Well-informed.  (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.

A critic may choose any two of the above three.  Choose wisely.

#53 Monster

Monster

    Member: Moves Upon the Waters

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 294 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:32 PM

The Book of Mormon narrative, its geography, its 19th century plots, it's anachronisms, all are much better explained as fiction. Trying to pin it down as an actual event seems an exercise in futility. Whats so wrong with saying it was inspired fiction or just fiction. That is no less believable than angels and gold plates. Plus it answers all the inconsistencies that arise.

Edited by Monster, 16 August 2012 - 08:33 PM.

Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

#54 ERayR

ERayR

    Stranger in a Strange Land

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,474 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:42 PM

View PostMonster, on 16 August 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

The Book of Mormon narrative, its geography, its 19th century plots, it's anachronisms, all are much better explained as fiction. Trying to pin it down as an actual event seems an exercise in futility. Whats so wrong with saying it was inspired fiction or just fiction. That is no less believable than angels and gold plates. Plus it answers all the inconsistencies that arise.

Because it isn't fiction and from your post I would say that any knowledge you may have on the subject is very superficial.

#55 Grebdo

Grebdo

    Newbie: Without form, and void

  • New Member
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

"The only remaining choices are liar or lunatic.  I simply can’t understand people who say none of this matters."

Well, the Brethren seem to take the position that it doesn't really matter.  As long as you don't commit a grievous sin or actively speak out against the church you can pretty much believe what you want and still be welcomed with open arms.  I personally think this is the correct position for the church.

Why people who don't fully believe want to remain is another matter but I'm sure there are as many reasons as there are non-believers.  Logical people need good reasons to believe in gold plates, angels that speak to people in modern times and a papyrus that says something different than what is claimed.  The apologetics explanations I have read for these things often don't add up and the Brethren rarely speak out on such controversial topics.  One is left to rely on faith and some have more of that than others.
...the love of truth has its reward in heaven and even on earth.   F.N.

#56 DonBradley

DonBradley

    Individualist in the service of a community

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,298 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:22 PM

My view substantially accords with Ben McGuire's.

I laid out some of my views on the Book of Mormon's historicity as a "wedge" issue several years ago on a short-lived personal Mormon history blog."  I was then a nonbeliever and defined myself on the blog as a "secular Mormon"--someone who, while rejecting Mormonism's foundational truth claims, had been substantially shaped by Mormon culture.  (In fact, Bill, I'd be interested in hearing your reaction to that former self-definition: "I am a secular Mormon.  I’m a former believer whose life and identity have been significantly shaped by Mormonism, and who continues to have a passionate engagement with it as a historian.")

The second, and last, entry was titled "'Either on the One Hand or on the Other': Why the Book of Mormon is Either True or Fraudulent."  It doesn't completely represent my views now--particularly since I expressed my nonbelief in it at the time, but I think I was substantially right that taking the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction would be an unstable view, raise logical, psychological, and proselytizing problems, and probably change the character of the faith, leading to a deemphasis also on the literal nature of priesthood authority and other central elements of the Restoration.

Below, I'll post lengthy excerpts from this still lengthier piece.

Don

Edited by DonBradley, 16 August 2012 - 11:25 PM.

"I’ve known Don a long time and have critiqued his previous work and have to say that he does much better as a believer than a critic." - Dan Vogel, August 8, 2011

"This is it folks, the high point of apologetics for the year. The church pumps millions into FARMS and its PR dept for this." - "Heresy," on a nameless board, August 11, 2011 - after reading the Deseret News piece about my Kinderhook plates presentation

#57 why me

why me

    Creates Beasts Of The Earth

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,903 posts

Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:57 PM

View Postrobuchan, on 16 August 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I mostly agree with Hamblin's points on the blog.

The best scenario I can come up with that makes the case for BOM as inspired fiction is something like this:
  • There were no gold plates, no angels, no visions.
  • Joseph Smith decided to create the BOM (with or without co-conspirators) and a new religion to go along with it
  • God is the type of God who doesn't intervene that closely in human affairs and mostly lets us do our thing
  • God foresaw Joseph Smith successfully creating a world religion and decided to nudge him along in a good direction, subtly inspiring some or all of the doctrines and contents of the BOM and the new religion he was creating.
I actually think I believe this to some degree.

It would be difficult to claim that the book of mormon is inspired fiction. One reason for this is the foundational story of the book of mormon complete with supernatural visitations. If JS wrote this book and made up these visitations and experiences he was not engaged in inspired fiction. But in a fraud.

What would be considered inspired? For example, the movie "The Way" staring Martin Sheen. This movie has inspired people to change their lives. But it has never been claimed to be a true story. It was written by his son, Emilio.

Edited by why me, 16 August 2012 - 11:58 PM.

Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)

#58 why me

why me

    Creates Beasts Of The Earth

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,903 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

View PostDonBradley, on 16 August 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:



Below, I'll post lengthy excerpts from this still lengthier piece.

Don

If joseph would have written this book as fiction, claimed it as fiction and stated he wrote it to inspire people, it would be inspired fiction if it inspired people to change their lives or become more faithful.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)

#59 DonBradley

DonBradley

    Individualist in the service of a community

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,298 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:06 AM

The following is from my old blog, five and a half years ago.  I apologize in advance for my reference, from my vantage point of the time, to "professional apologists."  And I would question some of my conclusions, like this: that the abandonment of Book of Mormon historicity would lead to the great expansion of the Church's humanitarian programs---??

Quote

"'Either on the One Hand or On the Other': Why the Book of Mormon is Either True or Fraudulent"

February 13, 2007
“The Book of Mormon claims to be a divinely inspired record, written by a succession of prophets who inhabited ancient America.… This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man… If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world…. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.”
—Orson Pratt

From the early days of Mormondom, Latter-day Saint authors have presented their audience with a stark dichotomy: the Book of Mormon is either exactly what it purports to be—an ancient record translated by divine power, or it is a deliberate fraud.

While I think there is more room for complexity and scholarly dialogue across faith boundaries than do many of these authors, I have come to embrace, at least in part, the dichotomy they present as one inherent in the claims of the book and its professed translator.
The Book of Mormon is a wedge, separating those who have faith in its own explanation for its existence from those who explain it as a product of either pious or self-serving fraud. Indeed, the book characterizes itself as a divider:

“…I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other; either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds, unto their being brought down into captivity, and also unto destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the Devil…”

This message of the Book of Mormon, and of the LDS authors alluded to, is theological—that faith in the book is a matter of salvation and that the book must be either divine or diabolical. My point, however, is not theological. I’m not going to argue that if false, the Book of Mormon is “a wicked imposition.” Nor will I argue that the use of deception in the creation of the book would preempt the value of its message or the possibility that God (assuming he exists) could use it to bring about his purposes. Although I do see difficulties in maintaining religious faith in a work so produced, it seems to me that persons who profess to see the hand of God in earthquakes, fires, tempests, the sinking of cities, and other such catastrophic “acts of God” should perhaps not be too quick to dismiss the possible presence of that hand in more mundane, and perhaps benign, human acts of deception. But ultimately, questions of the validity of religion that has used fraud belong in the domain of theology, while the questions that engage me are historical: How was the Book of Mormon created? What were the purposes and motives behind its creation? If Joseph Smith is taken as its author, should he be seen as utterly sincere, or measurably deceptive?

Some (such as the historian Robert Remini) prefer to avoid the issue of truth versus fraud, while others seek a middle ground. Scott Dunn, for instance, has advanced the position that Joseph Smith was a sincerely mistaken “automatic writer.” Some have suggested that Joseph merely thought he obtained plates and received the divine translation thereof. And others seem to take the position that Joseph Smith was sincere because God instructed him to make the claims he did and author the Book of Mormon. While middle-ground positions like these are possible, in my view they are inherently unstable and difficult to maintain—logically, psychologically, and institutionally.

The logical difficulty of the Book of Mormon middle ground arises from Joseph Smith’s use of tangible evidence for his claims. He provided for others to heft a cloth-wrapped object he claimed was the set of ancient plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon. If the object was such a set of ancient plates, then his claims to supernatural guidance seem very strong indeed. The finding of such an object in the New World, and particularly in North America, and on a hill otherwise bereft of archaeological materials, is unprecedented. And the fact that his claim to divine guidance to the object long precedes his claim to have obtained it preempts the explanation that he fortuitously found a valuable artifact and only later theologized its discovery.

If, on the other hand, the object Joseph Smith wrapped in a cloth and represented as the golden plates he’d found was not what he claimed, then he used this object to deceive those he allowed to heft it and was thus—to that extent—guilty of fraud.

His claim is thus either true or fraudulent. He almost certainly could not have been mistaken in making it. Only a truly delusional subject could mistake a stone, old book, or stack of boards for a set of ancient gold plates he’d unearthed, and innocently pass off the former as the latter over a period of nearly two years. But Joseph Smith’s efficient functioning in everyday life demonstrates that he was almost certainly not a victim of psychotic delusion.

Furthermore, to have acquired an object that so readily could be passed off as the plates, Joseph would have had to carefully search for or construct such an object according to precise specifications of size, shape, weight, texture, and structure. Such a deception could not have been carried out unwittingly. It could only have been deliberate.

It is therefore logically difficult to maintain that Joseph Smith was wrong yet entirely honest.

The dubious logical coherence of the middle ground between revealed history and deliberate fraud engenders the psychological difficulty of standing that middle ground. Because the ahistoricity of the Book of Mormon and the honesty of Joseph Smith are logically dissonant, their simultaneous presence in the same mind tends to be psychologically dissonant as well. And this dissonance state is difficult to maintain. It pushes one to reject one claim or the other. This I know from personal experience, having tried to maintain, in succession, a few different middle-ground positions on the book.

This and other psychological difficulties of braving the middle ground contribute significantly to the institutional problems of such a position. Adopting a middle-ground position on the Book of Mormon is potentially very disruptive and threatening to those communities or institutions built upon it.

On the one hand, the rumors of the LDS church’s apocalyptic demise should it adopt such a position are probably exaggerated. Rabbinic Judaism survived the Reform, which jettisoned the literal truth of the Hebrew Bible. Adventism survived “the Great Disappointment” of Christ’s non-appearance in 1844. And the Jehovah’s Witnesses have survived numerous failures of fundamental prophecy. Similarly, Mormonism would almost certainly survive the shift to an ahistorical Book of Mormon. But it would not likely survive undiminished.

While religions do survive dramatic shifts of fundamental belief, it is probably crucial to the thriving of the LDS church, including its high rates of growth and attendance, that the church continue to maintain the historicity of the Book of Mormon. A complex rationale for how the Book of Mormon is scriptural, although fictional and “translated” from gold plates that are likely fictional as well would be difficult to sell.

The experience of the church formerly known as Reorganized illustrates this. The Community of Christ, which has given up promoting a historical Book of Mormon, is foundering, uncertain of its direction, and losing members to breakaway congregations that still maintain traditional beliefs. Admittedly, this cannot all be attributed to a shift of perspective on the Book of Mormon. The RLDS church was never as strong as the LDS and has recently been led by Protestant-trained leadership, a leadership that tried to Protestantize and liberalize the church rapidly and without having the general membership “on board” for this transformation.

Still, the LDS church is likely to undergo significant stress and unwanted change if it adopts belief in an ahistorical Book of Mormon.
Retooling the missionary program for such a Book of Mormon would make it awkward. The book would be presented as fictional, or equivocally—as possibly historical, possibly fictional, but the investigator would soon discover that the book presents its narrative as literal truth and its narrators as very real persons, whom they will meet at the judgment bar. The investigator would also discover that its putative translator, Joseph Smith, claimed to have obtained the book in the most tangible of forms, metallic plates—from one of the book’s own character-narrators! Explaining this to everyone’s satisfaction would be a good trick. Many investigators would be confused, and a number of new converts would no doubt come in as “fundamentalists,” affirming the historicity that their new church rejects.

Latter-day Saints would also confront the logical and psychological dissonance described above. Questions of why to believe in the first place would likely loom large: “Why trust a fictional book or a prophet who used fraud?” “If Joseph Smith used fraud in this instance, where else might he have used it?”

The nature of LDS belief would be challenged, and perhaps dramatically changed. “If the Book of Mormon isn’t literal,” some might ask, “what else isn’t literal either?” Biblical prophecy? The Second Coming? The resurrection? The restoration of the priesthood? The power of the priesthood? The requirement for everyone to receive the ordinances? And if these were doubted, commitment to missionary work and temple work would flag.

It is not without reason that many LDS leaders and apologists fear that adoption of an ahistorical Book of Mormon lies at the top of a very slippery slope.

That said, the results would probably not be uniformly negative. Adopting an ahistorical view of the Book of Mormon would, for instance, almost certainly result in a greater ecumenism and an expansion of existing humanitarian programs[??]. But it would open a floodgate when the results of doing so are not entirely predictable and could threaten articles of faith almost no present-day Latter-day Saint would want to see discarded.

I think the leaders and professional apologists[??] of the church see these things, and see clearly. For this reason, those who promote the Book of Mormon as 19th-century scripture are likely to continue to meet strong resistance.

To shift from the institutional to the personal, my own experience bears out, at least for me, the difficulty and awkwardness of making one’s stand on the middle ground. My own gradual accommodation of the evidence for 19th-century elements in the Book of Mormon was never meant to be unfaithful: it was meant to be apologetic. I saw myself as reformulating my beliefs in such a way as to both adapt to the new evidence and maintain my faith. But in the process, the content of my faith changed—and shrank. And it was not till near the end of this erosion of my belief that I saw it as an erosion of belief.

At the end of the process, I was somewhere I could never have anticipated at the start. The foundation had been pulled out from under my spiritual world—a loss I still struggle to replace.

Even now, as a nonbeliever in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, I want to find inspiration in it and the rest of Mormonism. And I would prefer to see Joseph Smith as fully honest and sincere. Lacking that, I would at least like to see him as motivated for the welfare of others—a pious fraud. But a wish is not a fact—I should view Joseph Smith in one of these ways not merely if I want to, but only if I perceive the evidence as supporting that view. Sadly, I do not. <Expressions of nonbelief snipped>


A question that has nagged at me in my research into the origins of the Book of Mormon, and nags the more insistently on the view that Joseph Smith was a self-interested fraud, is, “Whence the spiritual power of the Book of Mormon?” There is no question that it possesses this power, and has deeply impacted, and even transformed, myriad lives.

Whence the spiritual power of the Book of Mormon?

The believer has a ready answer for this. For the secular scholar, it is a puzzle sufficiently difficult that none appear to have addressed it.



Copyright: Don Bradley–February 12, 2007, 7:22 PM

All this said, I agree with Ben that Latter-day Saints should accept those who adopt a middle-ground position as a way of preserving their faith.  And I wouldn't want to overly dichotomize or lay out an argument to persuade someone who doubts the Book of Mormon's historicity that they should therefore reject the book, and the Restoration, altogether. (What good would that do?)  It is, in my view, almost always distinctly unwise to lay out a dichotomy whose likely result will be to push an uncertain hearer further from the truth.

One "middle ground" position is currently being pursued by the prominent scholar of American religious experience Ann Taves, who is developing an explanation for how, as she sees it, the plates could have been unreal yet Joseph Smith have been sincere.  Her theory (which I heard secondhand but in confidence and therefore shouldn't share), so far as it has been explained to me, is interesting and innovative.

But, honestly, I'd have a hard time seeing how her theory could work.

And it still seems to me now, as it did five years ago, that it would be difficult to recast the Book of Mormon narratives as fictional, with their peoples and events having no real world correlates, without at the same time undermining the claims that the Restoration literally restores lost elements of God's ancient faith and that this is the uniquely true church on the earth.

So, while I don't want to press the dichotomy too far, I can't help seeing the Book of Mormon's reality as a matter of great, and potentially grave, consequence.  It, like the Restoration's unique divine authority and distinctive revealed doctrine, is something on which we cannot retreat but must advance.

Don
"I’ve known Don a long time and have critiqued his previous work and have to say that he does much better as a believer than a critic." - Dan Vogel, August 8, 2011

"This is it folks, the high point of apologetics for the year. The church pumps millions into FARMS and its PR dept for this." - "Heresy," on a nameless board, August 11, 2011 - after reading the Deseret News piece about my Kinderhook plates presentation

#60 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,272 posts

Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:23 AM

View Postwhy me, on 16 August 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

It would be difficult to claim that the book of mormon is inspired fiction. One reason for this is the foundational story of the book of mormon complete with supernatural visitations. If JS wrote this book and made up these visitations and experiences he was not engaged in inspired fiction. But in a fraud.
Not necessarily.  A "fraud" in a legal sense would mean that Joseph was intentionally deceiving people.  One might take the position that the visions were "made up" or a delusion, but that Joseph believed them to have actually happened, and thus it would not be a fraud.

Of course as I see it, it is impossible to tell if Joseph actually had those experiences or made them up.  In fact since one cannot ever know what is really going on with someone else's subjective experiences- I cannot know what you are thinking- the difference between them really happening and Joseph thinking they really happened becomes irrelevant.

But on the other hand, that would still not make the BOM "fiction" since fiction is story which the author knows is a made-up story

We ultimately have to take it all on faith and testimony anyway.
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users