22 replies to this topic

[Carborendum]

I'm one of those types that hardly ever gets sick.  I've had maybe five healing blessings in my entire life.  Of those five, all could be said to have worked.  Two of them were clearly miraculous.  I was spontaneously healed from a pretty bad condition to one of complete health. (By spontaneous, I mean that I began to feel physical sensations of changes during the blessing itself.)

But with both of those two in particular, when I told the ones giving the blessings, they refused to believe me.  One of them (my father) even went so far as to say,"No, son.  That's not how it works."  I began wondering how a healing blessing was supposed to work in any manner other than resulting in being healed.

So my question to the board is in the title of this post.  Why is believing in miracles so difficult?  Why would those who lay their hands on someone's head bother going through the motions if they did not believe it would actually work?  Is it just a metaphor to them?  If so called faithful Saints refuse to believe in miracles, is there any hope for the rest of the world?

[Tacenda]

Carborendum, on 10 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'm one of those types that hardly ever gets sick.  I've had maybe five healing blessings in my entire life.  Of those five, all could be said to have worked.  Two of them were clearly miraculous.  I was spontaneously healed from a pretty bad condition to one of complete health. (By spontaneous, I mean that I began to feel physical sensations of changes during the blessing itself.)

But with both of those two in particular, when I told the ones giving the blessings, they refused to believe me.  One of them (my father) even went so far as to say,"No, son.  That's not how it works."  I began wondering how a healing blessing was supposed to work in any manner other than resulting in being healed.

So my question to the board is in the title of this post.  Why is believing in miracles so difficult?  Why would those who lay their hands on someone's head bother going through the motions if they did not believe it would actually work?  Is it just a metaphor to them?  If so called faithful Saints refuse to believe in miracles, is there any hope for the rest of the world?

Because it's sort of a "clause" in case the blessing doesn't produce.  I'd be even angrier if all blessings are to be fulfilled if one has faith.  I had all the faith in the world that after the priesthood blessing she received, my mom could be cured of Alzheimer's or at the least something would be on the cusp to cure it from stem cells to a vaccine.  When that didn't happen I chalked it up to "not all blessings produce miracles".

Edited by Tacenda, 10 August 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[ERayR]

Tacenda, on 10 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Because it's sort of a "clause" in case the blessing doesn't produce.  I'd be even angrier if all blessings are to be fulfilled if one has faith.  I had all the faith in the world that after the priesthood blessing she received, my mom could be cured of Alzheimer's or at the least something would be on the cusp to cure it from stem cells to a vaccine.  When that didn't happen I chalked it up to "not all blessings produce miracles".

If all blessings produced miracles then none of us would die and the plan of progression would be thwarted.  Some do contract illnesses or have accidents before our time is up and a blessing of faith performed at those times can and often does produce miracles.  It is incumbent on the one giving the blessing to be prepared to receive the mind and will of God before promising any blessings.  Sometimes all you are prompted to do is give a blessing of comfort.  Sometimes the one giving the blessing promises more than is revealed.

[Deborah]

Carborendum, on 10 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Why is believing in miracles so difficult?

I think because we've lost sight of what a miracle is. I think we have miracles in our lives on a daily basis but fail to recognize them. In other words there are no coincidences.

And btw I've had immediate healing as well, but in another instance I did not and am living with the permanent result of an affliction. What is interesting is that when I was given the blessing the Priesthood holder said "And I know that you know the power of healing but the Lord will heal you in his own due time." The person didn't really know me and I've come to realize that the due time for the Lord is probably the next life in this case. I've asked myself why and what I've learned from this and I have learned some valuable lessons but I so wish I never had to deal with this.

[Carborendum]

I think I need to clarify something.  I'm not talking about why some blessings work and others don't.  I'm not talking about having an expectation beyond the will of the Lord.

I was talking about something that had ALREADY happened, yet people won't believe it has happened.

Edited by Carborendum, 10 August 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[calmoriah]

To whom much is given, much is expected.

Perhaps people don't want to feel like much is expected of them, even if they have not been direct recipients of miracles but only witnesses of them.

I also think some people downplay what has happened in the past so their expectations of the future aren't raised.  Sometimes having hope can be painful.  

And of course, it is easier to simply survive and not strive.  Miracles mean there are no limits.

add-on:  and of course there is the problem with coming up with answers for why God acted in one case so quickly and in another delayed or did not appear to act at all, at least in the person's lifetime.

Edited by calmoriah, 11 August 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Tacenda]

Carborendum, on 10 August 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

I think I need to clarify something.  I'm not talking about why some blessings work and others don't.  I'm not talking about having an expectation beyond the will of the Lord.

I was talking about something that had ALREADY happened, yet people won't believe it has happened.

I'm sorry I think I messed things up.  My previous reply didn't have much at all to do with the question,  but now that I read over it again I understand.

My next reply is this... My anscestors were part of the Willie & Martin  Handcart Company and their story was featured in the "17 Miracles" movie.  The one about the freshly baked pie in the road.  I tend to not believe it was sent from God and possibly it was a pie but one not so delicious and one that may have dropped from another handcart somehow.  I couldn't bring myself to believe in this miracle just as your father had a hard time believing your body healed during the prayer and you physically experienced it.  It's sad because it feels like we or I must not believe God has a hand in my life or others lives.  

Of course I never knew I was related to these anscestors until a friend of my parents pointed out their story in the book "The Price We Paid" .  It would have been nice to have known that I was related to them especially when hearing the story over and over again in primary.

Edited by Tacenda, 11 August 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[halconero]

I think we, as whole, simply lack faith, are limited by lowered expectations, and are afraid to command miracles.

Do you know how much faith is required to say to someone "I command in the name of Jesus Christ that you be completely healed"? It's scary.

I remember a sick child, one year old. Blood shot eyes rolled back into his head, a fever over a hundred, screaming, the closest hospital over three hours away. I testify of annointing oil, of the laying on of hands and the restored priesthood. I can testify of how scary it is to say those words "be healed now." I know what it feels like to feel calm upon saying them, to feel the Spirit confirm that and feel the fever cool under your hands and see eyes, once red, look up at you and smile appear as a small kid went to sleep quietly.

There was no placebo effect in this one year old, no medicine to cause such a rapid change, just the work of God.

I learned that day that if I am confident in my usage of the priesthood, if I speak without fear, but with boldness in declaring the will of God, miracles can be commanded.

Why say "if it be God's will" in a prayer? Why not seek out and find His will before and during a blessing so that an affirmative declaration can be made unto healing or comfort?

[halconero]

Dangnabbit

Edited by halconero, 11 August 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[halconero]

I am not having any luck with the double posts.

[Tacenda]

halconero, on 11 August 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

I think we, as whole, simply lack faith, are limited by lowered expectations, and are afraid to command miracles.

Do you know how much faith is required to say to someone "I command in the name of Jesus Christ that you be completely healed"? It's scary.

I remember a sick child, one year old. Blood shot eyes rolled back into his head, a fever over a hundred, screaming, the closest hospital over three hours away. I testify of annointing oil, of the laying on of hands and the restored priesthood. I can testify of how scary it is to say those words "be healed now." I know what it feels like to feel calm upon saying them, to feel the Spirit confirm that and feel the fever cool under your hands and see eyes, once red, look up at you and smile appear as a small kid went to sleep quietly.

There was no placebo effect in this one year old, no medicine to cause such a rapid change, just the work of God.

I learned that day that if I am confident in my usage of the priesthood, if I speak without fear, but with boldness in declaring the will of God, miracles can be commanded.

Why say "if it be God's will" in a prayer? Why not seek out and find His will before and during a blessing so that an affirmative declaration can be made unto healing or comfort?

Love this story!

[Alvino]

Carborendum, on 10 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'm one of those types that hardly ever gets sick.  I've had maybe five healing blessings in my entire life.  Of those five, all could be said to have worked.  Two of them were clearly miraculous.  I was spontaneously healed from a pretty bad condition to one of complete health. (By spontaneous, I mean that I began to feel physical sensations of changes during the blessing itself.)

But with both of those two in particular, when I told the ones giving the blessings, they refused to believe me.  One of them (my father) even went so far as to say,"No, son.  That's not how it works."  I began wondering how a healing blessing was supposed to work in any manner other than resulting in being healed.

So my question to the board is in the title of this post.  Why is believing in miracles so difficult?  Why would those who lay their hands on someone's head bother going through the motions if they did not believe it would actually work?  Is it just a metaphor to them?  If so called faithful Saints refuse to believe in miracles, is there any hope for the rest of the world?

For some of us we now realize in this modern age how easy it is for us to be wrong so that when we find very risky situations going our way we still find it hard to believe it came out as good as it did.

Should point out that even for believers it is good to keep a healthy skepticism going regarding miracles. Too many realizations that certain situations were not miraculous where before they had been believed to be could seriously weaken faith. Plus, to outside observers, a quick credulity on the part of the believers on miracles makes one wonder whether a testimony is worth anything when it's given by a mind too quick to believe anything.

Edited by Alvino, 11 August 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[Deborah]

Alvino, on 11 August 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Should point out that even for believers it is good to keep a healthy skepticism going regarding miracles. Too many realizations that certain situations were not miraculous where before they had been believed to be could seriously weaken faith.

My problem with this is that something someone at the time regarded as miraculous can later be questioned. I tend to believe the first impression. I think part of the problem is we have become so skeptical in our thinking that we look for reasons the "miracle" happened and when we figure out some things that could have caused it we doubt the miracle, not understanding that the fact these things came together when they did may be the miracle.

On the other hand I have had things happen that no amount of rationing or logic can explain.

[Carborendum]

Calmoriah,
I believe it is true, and sad that people are unwilling to maintain hope.  In the end, no hope will result in no faith or at least diminished faith.

I see no reason we should feel some onus to explain why with regard to a miracle.  The fact it is a miracle implies something that cannot be explained by mortal means.  The fact we actually try to explain it indicates that we're coming from a position that it wasn't really a miracle.


Tacenda,
I believe you're in a perfect place to be able to answer my question.  You talk of *what* you believe about the pie miracle.  Could you explain *why* you cannot bring yourself to believe it?  Do you just not believe in miracles in general?  Or is there something about this story that doesn't "pass the smell test"? Or...?

halconero,

I thank you for sharing your story.  I haven't received a confirmation from the Spirit that it is definitely true.  But I have no problem just accepting your statements at face value.  This minimum level of faith is all I would ask of anyone.  But it appears that many aren't even willing to have even this level of faith.

Scary?  Why?  I've given blessings when I received confirmation upon completion that my words would be fulfilled.  Other times I received no such confirmation.  And worse, I've received confirmation that my words would NOT be fulfilled.

It is obvious they were my words.  But the power is from God.


Alvino,

I completely understand the idea that we've been lied to so often that we're afraid of believing people at face value.  I also understand that too many people are too easily willing to believe things that simply aren't true.  But even this discernment is something that we can depend on the Spirit for.

I hear so many urban legends.  I spent a lot of time reading them, learning about them.  I've learned a certain pattern to them.  In fact, there is a pattern to almost all lies--even those lies that the deliverer actually believes.

When I hear some people repeating these "miraculous" legends, I tend to think of them as fools.  But just because there are these false miracles, does not mean there aren't true miracles.  We shouldn't be afraid of believing in them.

I think I'll start a thread about urban legends.

[CA Steve]

Perhaps advances in scientific knowledge have something to do with this. Understanding how one gets sick and recovers takes away some of the mystery. Understanding how and why a tornado or tsunami occur lead to better understanding on why some survived and others did not. The less we understand about an event the more room there is to see part or all of it as a supernatural occurrence.

[Tacenda]

CA Steve, on 11 August 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Perhaps advances in scientific knowledge have something to do with this. Understanding how one gets sick and recovers takes away some of the mystery. Understanding how and why a tornado or tsunami occur lead to better understanding on why some survived and others did not. The less we understand about an event the more room there is to see part or all of it as a supernatural occurrence.

I believe you are right that some miracles, for instance the Mormon cricket story which has become quite possibly an Urban Legend, was probably scientifically produced and not really the miracle so many were lead to believe.

Carborendum, on 11 August 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Calmoriah,
I believe it is true, and sad that people are unwilling to maintain hope.  In the end, no hope will result in no faith or at least diminished faith.

I see no reason we should feel some onus to explain why with regard to a miracle.  The fact it is a miracle implies something that cannot be explained by mortal means.  The fact we actually try to explain it indicates that we're coming from a position that it wasn't really a miracle.


Tacenda,
I believe you're in a perfect place to be able to answer my question.  You talk of *what* you believe about the pie miracle.  Could you explain *why* you cannot bring yourself to believe it?  Do you just not believe in miracles in general?  Or is there something about this story that doesn't "pass the smell test"? Or...?

halconero,

I thank you for sharing your story.  I haven't received a confirmation from the Spirit that it is definitely true.  But I have no problem just accepting your statements at face value.  This minimum level of faith is all I would ask of anyone.  But it appears that many aren't even willing to have even this level of faith.

Scary?  Why?  I've given blessings when I received confirmation upon completion that my words would be fulfilled.  Other times I received no such confirmation.  And worse, I've received confirmation that my words would NOT be fulfilled.

It is obvious they were my words.  But the power is from God.


Alvino,

I completely understand the idea that we've been lied to so often that we're afraid of believing people at face value.  I also understand that too many people are too easily willing to believe things that simply aren't true.  But even this discernment is something that we can depend on the Spirit for.

I hear so many urban legends.  I spent a lot of time reading them, learning about them.  I've learned a certain pattern to them.  In fact, there is a pattern to almost all lies--even those lies that the deliverer actually believes.

When I hear some people repeating these "miraculous" legends, I tend to think of them as fools.  But just because there are these false miracles, does not mean there aren't true miracles.  We shouldn't be afraid of believing in them.

I think I'll start a thread about urban legends.

And to answer your question Carborendum, I think you nailed it when you say maybe my reason's for disbelief in that miracle of the pie in the road was that it doesn't pass the smell test.  But I feel bad for not "full on" believing in it.

Edited by Tacenda, 11 August 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[DBMormon]

Quote

   I think we, as whole, simply lack faith, are limited by lowered expectations, and are afraid to command miracles.

Do you know how much faith is required to say to someone "I command in the name of Jesus Christ that you be completely healed"? It's scary

We as a people love boasting we have priesthood and authority and power to heal, but when we get right own to it very few of us are willing to take the risk to proclaim such things in our actions.

[CV75]

Carborendum, on 10 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Why would those who lay their hands on someone's head bother going through the motions if they did not believe it would actually work?

I would say that they are exercsiig faith in one prnciple but not another. Hopefully someday all the foci of faith will be all caught up with each other and integrated.

Many, many do correctly believe, or have faith in miracles, and these will move the Church along. Faith is alive and well in these last days, which Mormon saw (Mormoni 7:35-37).

Edited by CV75, 11 August 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[blackstrap]

When is one convinced of some event? When first hearing about it? When hearing the witness/witnesses tell about it? After visiting the place where the event happened? After reading and researching all that has been written and spoken on the event? After personally experiencing the event/similar event?

It is amazing how quickly people naysay any event and present some reason or excuse why it didn't happen as reported. Funny how the most opinionated are never the ones that were actually THERE when the event happened.

That said,most of us would sympathize with ' Doubting Thomas '

[Garden Girl]

I received a "miracle" of healing upon receiving a priesthood blessing on a Sunday before going in for a procedure the following Tuesday... where my doc fully expected to complete a final test for confirmation and take me right into surgery (I had to sign the authorization to do so before the test because I'd be too out of it to do so after the test and they'd need to take me right into surgery).  My doc expressed his surprise to find everything was fine... still groggy I asked, But what about all the years of pain... what about these past weeks... He sort of shrugged his shoulders... I told him... Oh, I know, I had a priesthood blessing... He said, Well it worked...

In the approx five years since that day, I've had no pain or episodes, in stark contrast to the years and weeks leading up to that time that had sent me running to the doctor.

I am reminded of scriptures regarding the gifts of the Spirit... particularly D&C 46:19-21... and the brothers who gave me the blessing... and the faith I felt as they annointed and blessed me...

"And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
And to others it is given to have faith to heal;
And again, to some is given the working of miracles."

GG