Jump to content


Piercing The Veil

Don Bradley Temple FAIR Book of Mormon Lost 116 pages

  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#21 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,801 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:51 PM

View PostCASteinman, on 06 August 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

The text as quoted in the article does not suggest that it was to shield them from direct contact with God's Glory.   It comes across as though he was told to shield his face and then, once he did, he was able to see supernatural things.
God's glory is his intelligence.  Perhaps they should have just accepted it instead of putting up some kind of shield.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#22 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,801 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostMaidservant, on 07 August 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

animal skins = our bodies (being born) = temple = transmission of God's power and authority
Very good, only I'd say skins = mortal flesh > temple > transmission of God's power and authority (and notice how that's after men have already been ordained to the high priesthood, which women don't need to be ordained to).  :<)
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#23 USU78

USU78

    Dr. Pepper Addict

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,168 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:03 PM

Quote







Piercing the Veil: Temple Worship in the Lost 116 Pages

by Don Bradley

FAIR Conferences >> 2012 FAIR Conference
Since you’ve all read the title of my presentation today, “Piercing the Veil: Temple Worship in the Lost 116 Pages,” I should begin by answering a few questions.
First, no, my research did not require any trips to the Point of the Mountain to visit Mark Hoffman. While he was also at one point working on a book related to the lost 116 pages, his book differed from mine in that it was supposed to actually be the lost 116 pages. I’m sure it’s a lot easier to say what’s in the lost pages when you write them yourself, but my scholarly approach will get the job done, hopefully, with more credible results and fewer fatalities.
Second, also no—the lost pages did not predict anything about whether a large and mighty man in the last days by name of Mittromni would be victorious.
And, third, yes, there really are things we can know about what was in the lost pages. There are several kinds of evidence for their content. I’ll touch on those very lightly now, and if you’d like more information, I can go into a little more detail in the Q&A.
Using the various types of evidence for the Book of Lehi’s contents, and piecing together the various fragments like puzzle pieces, a larger picture of the book’s contents begins to emerge. I’m currently piecing some of this together as my Master’s thesis at Utah State. And, in fact, I have enough material that I’m also producing a book that covers both the history in and history of the lost pages. That’ll be published by Greg Kofford Books as soon as I’ve written, oh, another 116 pages or so. Give or take.
That book will really be focused on the lost pages, and develop that topic far more than we can here today. So, what we’re going to focus us on isn’t the lost pages as a topic in itself. Rather, we’re going to explore temple worship among the Nephites, using some of what we can know about the lost pages to help us.
We Latter-day Saints are temple-centered people. So were the Nephites. But what do we know about their temple worship, how it worked and what it was for?
How was it even possible for the Nephites to observe the Mosaic rituals without the Levitical priesthood, the Aaronite high priest, and the Ark of the Covenant? And given that our temple worship today isn’t about animal sacrifice, what, if anything, does their temple worship have to do with ours? Critics, and even friendlier outside observers like Harold Bloom, have sometimes come away from reading the Book of Mormon—in Bloom’s case not reading it very much—but they’ve sometimes come away thinking that there isn’t much “Mormon-ism” in the book. Let’s see whether our exploration of temple themes in the Nephite narratives contradicts this or bears it out.
I. Nephite temple worship: Who? How? Why?

Who?
Who was the high priest in charge of Nephite temple worship? And on whom was his authority modeled?
How?
How was the divine presence embodied in the Nephite temple in the absence of the Ark of the Covenant?
How did the Nephite high priest perform the Day of Atonement ritual without the Ark of the Covenant?
Why?
Beyond the need to fulfill the temporary Law of Moses, why did the Nephites have temples?
Or, in other words, what in the Nephite world is a temple for?
To answer our questions of “who” and “how,” we’ll look to the internal evidence of our available Book of Mormon text. And then to answer our “why” question we’ll delve into the narratives of Aminadi and King Mosiah the First, which appeared in the Book of Lehi.
II. The Nephite High Priest

The Mosaic Law mandated that certain rituals be performed by the high priest, whom it was understood would be of the household of Aaron. But the Nephites didn’t have any Aaronic priests among them, nor any Levites. So, the only way they could fulfill the requirements of the Law would have been to use a substitute. And to make the substitution legitimate they needed someone whose authority would trump the usual requirements. Merely turning 50 or being too old for the elders quorum basketball team would not have been enough.
To determine the identity of the Nephite high priest, it’ll help us to answer two more detailed questions.
First, who stood at the apex of the Nephite priesthood hierarchy?
And, second, who possessed the means to inquire of God in the way the biblical high priest did?
Who then served as the Nephites’ high priest? The available text of the Book of Mormon answers this question by indicating who chose and ordained the priests to be such. During the period of the Nephite monarchy, it is overwhelmingly the kings who consecrate priests. Nephi, Benjamin, Mosiah the Second, Zeniff, and Noah are each described as doing so.
The one non-king who consecrates priests during our record of this period is Alma the Elder. Yet the text makes clear that Alma’s authority is derived from the king. Alma was made a priest by King Noah. And even as leader of the church in the land of Zarahemla Alma was “high priest” in the sense of being a higher priest than those he presided over and not in the sense of being the highest priest among the Nephites. His authority derived from the still greater authority of Mosiah, as explained to us in Mosiah 26:8: “Now king Mosiah had given Alma the authority over the church.” Whereas Alma’s authority was derivative, Mosiah’s was intrinsic. He was the high priest.
Analyzing the Nephite priesthood structure reveals the king to stand in its highest position, and thus to be the High Priest. The king’s position as high priest is also revealed by his role in the king’s position in the Nephite priesthood structure reveals him
In addition to the king’s position at the top of the Nephite priesthood structure, we find evidence of his status as high priest in his using the same or a similar instrument to the one used by the biblical high priest to inquire of God’s will for His people. For the ancient Israelites this instrument was the stones of Urim and Thummim, kept in the pocket of a breastplate. The equivalent Nephite instrument, which also attaches to a breastplate, is called in the Book of Mormon “the interpreters” and in revelation to Joseph Smith “the Urim and Thummim.” Importantly, this Nephite equivalent to the Jerusalem high priest’s most important relic was the possession of the Nephite kings. Mosiah the Second used it to interpret the twenty-four Jaredite plates, as his grandfather Mosiah the First evidently had to interpret the Jaredite stone record. This would place the interpreters in the hands of the Nephite kings even while the prophetic record “the small plates” was still being through Jacob’s line, suggesting that the Nephite high priestly relics and role belonged, not to the prophets, but to the kings.
III. The Nephite Ark

We go from the “who” now to the “how” of Nephite temple worship. Nephi wrote that he had built a temple like that of Solomon. This statement has drawn guffaws from critics, who note the enormous scale and grandeur of Solomon’s temple. But it isn’t the scale and grandeur of Solomon’s temple that made it a model for Nephi’s. Nephi wanted his temple to be like Solomon’s, not in size, but in functionality. To perform the rituals prescribed by the Law of Moses his people would need a temple parallel to Solomon’s in rooms and relics.
The modeling of Nephite worship on early Israelite worship in Jerusalem has been explored by Kevin Christensen. Christensen describes key features of Jerusalem worship from the days of Lehi’s youth, before the heavy-handed Josian reform, and then observes that Nephite religion contained all of these, “with the understandable exception of the specific temple artifacts kept in the holy of holies, the ark of the covenant…and the cherubim.”
But while the Nephites’ omission of the Ark of the Covenant from their temple is, as he says, understandable, it is also glaring. The Jerusalem temple was, in one sense, a house for the Ark of the Covenant. The temple was structured in layers of sacredness, or degrees of glory, if you will, around the Ark, with the chamber that contained the Ark being the holiest place of all, the Holy of Holies. The Ark, bearing as it did the stone tablets God touched with His finger on Sinai during the Exodus, provided Israel an embodiment of His presence. The Ark also served as an altar, upon which the Aaronite high priest was required to sprinkle sacrificial blood during the all-important Day of Atonement.
How could the Nephites keep the Law of Moses without access to the Ark of the Covenant? And with what, if not the miraculous relics of the Exodus, including their literal touchstones with Deity, would sufficiently sanctify their Holy of Holies to make it an appropriate dwelling place for God? As in the case of replacing the Aaronite high priest, they would have to introduce their own fitting substitute. Whether the Nephite temple was like Solomon’s on its exterior was irrelevant. Whether it was like Solomon’s here, at its heart, the Holy of Holies, was vital. Something, presumably something remarkable, would have to sit in the Ark’s place.
But what did the Nephites have that could stand in for the sacred relics of the Exodus kept in Solomon’s temple? They had their own sacred relics, including those of their exodus to the new promised land, relics handed down through the line of kings and then that of prophets and ultimately recovered by Joseph Smith on the Hill Cumorah. In the stone box—which Martin Harris reportedly called an “ark”—Joseph found a set of Nephite sacred treasures that paralleled the relics associated with the Ark and its custodian, the High Priest.
The relevant relics associated with the Ark and the High Priest were as follows: in the Ark were the stone tablets God had touched during the Exodus, and according to the Epistle to the Hebrews, also Aaron’s rod that budded and a pot of manna. And we’ve already discussed the High Priest’s Urim and Thummim and breastplate, which attached to a garment referred to as the ephod.
Cumorah’s “ark” contained the plates, the breastplate and interpreters, the Liahona, and the sword of Laban. The most obvious identification, which we’ve already made is that of breastplate with breastplate, and interpreters with Urim and Thummim. Only slightly less obvious is the parallel of scriptural stone tablets with scriptural golden plates—or, golden tablets.
Setting aside the sword for the moment, or sheathing it, this leaves the pot of manna and Aaron’s rod from the Ark of the Covenant and the Liahona from the Nephite reliquary. Are these really parallel? They are indeed. In general terms they’re parallel as memorials of God’s mercy to the children of Israel in their Exodus and God’s mercy to Lehi’s family in their exodus. But the parallels get much more specific. The pot of manna memorialized God miraculously providing the Israelites with sustenance on their journey: Exodus 16:13-15: “In the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing…. And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna, for they wist not what it was.” Aaron’s rod had been an instrument for divining God’s will. To settle dispute over who had right to serve in the priestly role in the Tabernacle, each of the twelve tribes placed a rod before the Ark. Aaron’s rod then budded, demonstrating that it was his family that had been chosen for these duties.
What sacred object was associated with these functions in the exodus of Lehi’s family to their New World promised land? How did they divine God’s will, and receive sustenance from Him? It was the Liahona through which they learned God’s will and by which they were led to the provisions that sustained them on their journey. The giving of the Liahona, as described by Nephi, was surprisingly similar to the giving of the manna: “As my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship” (1 Nephi 16:10). Regardless of whether, as it seems, the bestowal of the Liahona was intended to evoke that of the manna, the preservation of a pot of manna and the preservation of the Liahona memorialized the same divine blessings of sustenance upon Moses’ people and upon Lehi’s.
Now, taking up the sword of Laban, so to speak, surely that has nothing to do with the Ark relics or the high priestly implements…. Right?
In an article a few years in ago in The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Ben McGuire, building on the work of Noel Reynolds, examined the political implications of Nephi’s story of killing Laban. Nephi highlights the superior obedience that was to mark him as ruler over his brothers. He also in at least three places adopts language from the story of David killing Goliath, the incident that brought David to prominence and set him on the road to the throne and the founding of a dynasty. When, in Nephi’s narrative, we seen him vanquish the enemy who had terrified his older brothers, beheading him with his own sword, we are watching him follow precisely the footprints and sword strokes of King David.
Laban was Nephi’s Goliath. And Laban’s sword became a relic he passed on to his priest-king successors, in company with the other sacred artifacts.
What became of Goliath’s sword after David ensured that Goliath would no longer need it? You’ll probably remember the story of David fleeing into the temple while pursued by Saul, and being helped by one of the temple priests.
And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it [is here] wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take [it]: for [there is] no other save that here. And David said, [There is] none like that; give it me. 1 Samuel 21:9
The cache of Nephite sacred treasures was more than sufficient, and at least equal in spiritual power to those in the Ark of the Covenant. Including as it did the interpreters, which had been touched by God and served as a medium of communication with Him, it made an ideal point of contact between God and man to rest at the center of the Nephite Holy of Holies.
IV. Aminadi

Alma 11
The fact that Amulek puts Aminadi a few generations earlier suggests that the incident occurred at the temple in the land of Nephi, prior to King Mosiah I’s exodus to Zarahemla, which would place it in the time period covered by the lost pages.
Amulek assumed his audience would recognize the name Aminadi and wonder if he spoke of “that same Aminadi” who had interpreted the writing on the temple wall. That the people of Ammonihah could be assumed to know the story of Aminadi is telling. These, after all, are people known to us not for zealously reading the scriptures, but for zealously burning them. If they could be assumed to know this incident from Nephite sacred history, then it was a prominent one indeed and likely included by Mormon in his abridgment of early Nephite history in the lost pages.
Mormon himself felt no need to add an explanation of who Aminadi was for his audience, the latter-day reader. But Mormon could assume his audience, the latter-day reader, would know the story only if he had told it in a portion of his abridgment not currently available to us—in other words, the lost pages.
What can we know of this significant event of Nephite history, and likely of the lost pages? I’ll argue in my book that we can know a surprising amount. For now, let’s take a basic look at what Amulek says about the “writing on the wall” incident and what it tells us about the Nephite temple.
In Amulek’s brief description of the event Aminadi appears as a wisdom figure parallel to the biblical seers Joseph and Daniel. The lives of Joseph and Daniel share some common storyline. In each, a king seeks the meaning of a supernatural manifestation, his wise men cannot interpret it, but the correct interpretation is revealed to a captive Hebrew prophet. In the case of Daniel, the parallel to Aminadi is particularly strong.

I'd like to comment/speculate on this point.  So very interesting, especially given the probable time frame.  We don't know what happened to compel Mosiah I to become a Moses in a new Exodus from a place [possibly a place of bondage?] to a place of freedom where they [by military action?/superior claims to kingship?] supplant local authority, but don't drive out the local inhabitants, but there is an argument to be made here that, like Daniel, a slave/hostage of a conquering power, Aminadi interprets writing on the temple wall, presumably in Nephi.

For whose benefit was the interpretation?  Was it similar to Daniel, where it was to give a false and usurping [Lamanite] King of the [now previously] Promised Land?  Did it fortell his downfall?  Did yet another power intervene to cause the freedom of an enslaved [Nephite] people?  Or were did it signal a restoration of power to a decadent [Nephite] kingly line, empowering its scion to lead the new exodus in power, rather than skulking away as did the later two groups of Zeniffite refugees from Lamanite oppression?

I had these thoughts during this portion of the presentation last week.

My head's still spinning.
In the immortal words of? Socrates...I DRANK WHAT???!!!

#24 Avatar4321

Avatar4321

    Places Sun, Moon & Stars In The Sky

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,068 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

It's threads with nuggets like this that make me keep coming back here. Love learning new things.
"It is extremely important for you to believe in yourselves, not only for what you are now, but for what you have the power to become. Trust in the Lord as He leads you along. He has things for you to do that you won't know about now, but that will unfold later. If you stay close to Him, you will have some great adventures. You will live in a time when instead of just talking about prophecies that will sometime be fulfilled, many of them will actually be fulfilled. The Lord will unfold your future bit by bit."- Elder Neal A. Maxwell

"If you live up to your privileges, the angels cannot be restrained from being your associates" - Joseph Smith

#25 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,801 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

View PostUSU78, on 07 August 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

My head's still spinning.
He does present the information clearly, doesn't he, and all of it just makes a lot of sense.

Who would have thought someone should and could be appointed as a high priest of the Aaronic order without being a literal descendant of Aaron?  I mean, sure, we know that now that the priesthood has been restored, but how could anyone else have known that before the restoration... you know, if anyone even thought to question all of that?

And using other relics like those in the arc of the covenant?  Who would have thought of using relics in that way, for that purpose?

It's amazing what we don't think of until we think of it, isn't it.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#26 CASteinman

CASteinman

    Gone

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,884 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:05 PM

View PostAhab, on 07 August 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

God's glory is his intelligence.  Perhaps they should have just accepted it instead of putting up some kind of shield.

But they were told to do it.

#27 ANACO

ANACO

    Member: Moves Upon the Waters

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:07 PM

Quote from the article:

Quote

The one non-king who consecrates priests during our record of this period is Alma the Elder. Yet the text makes clear that Alma’s authority is derived from the king. Alma was made a priest by King Noah. And even as leader of the church in the land of Zarahemla Alma was “high priest” in the sense of being a higher priest than those he presided over and not in the sense of being the highest priest among the Nephites. His authority derived from the still greater authority of Mosiah, as explained to us in Mosiah 26:8: “Now king Mosiah had given Alma the authority over the church.” Whereas Alma’s authority was derivative, Mosiah’s was intrinsic. He was the high priest.
Analyzing the Nephite priesthood structure reveals the king to stand in its highest position, and thus to be the High Priest. The king’s position as high priest is also revealed by his role in the king’s position in the Nephite priesthood structure reveals him

I take issue with what I bolded above.
Alma's priesthood authority was not given to him by the King, but by the High Priest acting as the King.
Omni 1:19 states that Mosiah was appointed the King by the united people of Nephi and of Zarahemla:

"19 And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did aunite together; and bMosiah was appointed to be their king."

Priesthood positions were not made by appointment of the people. Their rulers were. It's clear the people wanted their Priesthood Leader, Mosiah, to be their King and Ruler (similar to Nephi being appointed). It's clear Mosiah was the High Priest long before he was made to be their King. It was Mosiah who was commanded of the Lord to lead the Nephites out of the Land of Nephi to the Land of Zarahemla. They were at the time righteous Nephites who had followed their Priesthood Leader. Some Nephites stayed behind, presumably, and did not follow Mosiah to Zarahemla (Omni 1:13). So why wouldn't a group of righteous Nephites appoint their Priesthood Leader to be their King?

Therefore, Alma the Elder's Priesthood Authority was not derived from the King, but from the High Priest who at the time was also their King.

Also, Alma the Elder, could have received the priesthood, not from King Noah, but from a priesthood holder before Noah was made king. Alma was just deceived, temporarily, until the Prophet Abinidai corrected him.

As regarding any Levitical Priesthood, why could not Zoram, servant of Laban, had held the Levitical Priesthood? Laban was a descendant of Joseph, but could his servants have been Levitical priests?
1 Nephi 5:16 implies the descendants of Joseph kept the records. So Zoram being a Levite, may not be the case.

Edited by ANACO, 07 August 2012 - 05:11 PM.


#28 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostMaidservant, on 07 August 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

animal skins = our bodies (being born) = temple = transmission of God's power and authority

I had a slightly different thought, based on the short work called Sefer Ha-Malbush (The Book of the Garment). After the usual preparations for holiness- fasting, sexual abstinence, ritual purity, specially prepared food and alms for the poor- one would inscribe the name of God on a mantle and hood made of deerskin, then step into water before donning the name. which gave power, protection and control over angels. The use of skins to handle the holy is interesting, as is the place wherein the ritual takes place: water. Just as the temple was the meeting place of heaven and earth, water was also seen as filling such a role, a part of the "lightworld," to borrow a Mandaean phrase.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#29 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:04 PM

Quote

Or were did it signal a restoration of power to a decadent [Nephite] kingly line, empowering its scion to lead the new exodus in power, rather than skulking away as did the later two groups of Zeniffite refugees from Lamanite oppression?

We may never know, but I favour this reading.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#30 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

Quote

I take issue with what I bolded above.
Alma's priesthood authority was not given to him by the King, but by the High Priest acting as the King.
Omni 1:19 states that Mosiah was appointed the King by the united people of Nephi and of Zarahemla:

"19 And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did aunite together; and bMosiah was appointed to be their king."

Priesthood positions were not made by appointment of the people. Their rulers were. It's clear the people wanted their Priesthood Leader, Mosiah, to be their King and Ruler (similar to Nephi being appointed). It's clear Mosiah was the High Priest long before he was made to be their King. It was Mosiah who was commanded of the Lord to lead the Nephites out of the Land of Nephi to the Land of Zarahemla. They were at the time righteous Nephites who had followed their Priesthood Leader. Some Nephites stayed behind, presumably, and did not follow Mosiah to Zarahemla (Omni 1:13). So why wouldn't a group of righteous Nephites appoint their Priesthood Leader to be their King?

Zarahemla was a different socio-political entity which united with the people of Mosiah, accepting Mosiah as the ruler of both groups.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#31 DonBradley

DonBradley

    Individualist in the service of a community

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,298 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:21 PM

Hi All,

I'm glad to see my thoughts from the conference have sparked others thinking as well.

I think there is a connection between Aminadi and King Mosiah I, with Aminadi having been in some way a forerunner to Mosiah I.  I'm still working on that, and such narrative models are made to be improved on.  So, I hope others will also work on these problems, including critiquing, building on, and even departing from what I piece together in my book.

The relationship of the offices of prophet, priest, and king among the Nephites is also a fascinating one.  In my book present both what I did at the conference and a further case that the offices of king and high priest were joined in one man until the reign of the judges, with the royal/high priestly relics having been the exact same set, vested in one and the same man. (Note that this coincides well also with the early Israelite temple cult, in which the king was arguably higher than the nominal high priest and was regarded as a priest after the order of Melchizedek.)

Regarding Zoram, I see nothing indicating that he was of the tribe of Levi, nor any indication that he or his descendants acted in a priestly role, nor any indication that there were Levites among the Lehites.  From the beginning Lehi himself performs sacrifices, indicating that he and his people were not reliant on the levitical system.  And, rather than indication that Zoram was a descendant of Levi, I have a (heretofore unused) source tracing his lineage to another tribe and giving the lost pages as the source for this information.

I'll have much more to present on these issues, which, though I don't expect it to settle all of them, will hopefully help us to pursue them in a more systematic and informed way.  The information we can find and piece together about early Nephite history and worship during the "lost pages" period will provide quite a bit of grist for the mill as we continue to figure things out.

Don
"I’ve known Don a long time and have critiqued his previous work and have to say that he does much better as a believer than a critic." - Dan Vogel, August 8, 2011

"This is it folks, the high point of apologetics for the year. The church pumps millions into FARMS and its PR dept for this." - "Heresy," on a nameless board, August 11, 2011 - after reading the Deseret News piece about my Kinderhook plates presentation

#32 Ahab

Ahab

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,801 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

View PostCASteinman, on 07 August 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

But they were told to do it.
I was just wondering what would have happened if they didn't look into the hat, or the skins.  It was probably to make it easier to see the light, since it's easier to see light in darkness, but since God's light is his intelligence I would think anyone would be able to see it if they were just paying attention and could feel the spirit of truth bear witness to what was revealed.

Or maybe the revelations appeared with some actual light, in actual darkness?  I suppose they probably did, huh, since they were actually looking into something and cutting themselves off from some actual light.

Glow in the dark revelations from seer stones enlightened by God.  Fascinating,isn't it.

Edited by Ahab, 08 August 2012 - 01:14 PM.

I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#33 ANACO

ANACO

    Member: Moves Upon the Waters

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostDonBradley, on 07 August 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Hi All,

I'm glad to see my thoughts from the conference have sparked others thinking as well.

I think there is a connection between Aminadi and King Mosiah I, with Aminadi having been in some way a forerunner to Mosiah I.  I'm still working on that, and such narrative models are made to be improved on.  So, I hope others will also work on these problems, including critiquing, building on, and even departing from what I piece together in my book.

The relationship of the offices of prophet, priest, and king among the Nephites is also a fascinating one.  In my book present both what I did at the conference and a further case that the offices of king and high priest were joined in one man until the reign of the judges, with the royal/high priestly relics having been the exact same set, vested in one and the same man. (Note that this coincides well also with the early Israelite temple cult, in which the king was arguably higher than the nominal high priest and was regarded as a priest after the order of Melchizedek.)

Regarding Zoram, I see nothing indicating that he was of the tribe of Levi, nor any indication that he or his descendants acted in a priestly role, nor any indication that there were Levites among the Lehites.  From the beginning Lehi himself performs sacrifices, indicating that he and his people were not reliant on the levitical system.  And, rather than indication that Zoram was a descendant of Levi, I have a (heretofore unused) source tracing his lineage to another tribe and giving the lost pages as the source for this information.

I'll have much more to present on these issues, which, though I don't expect it to settle all of them, will hopefully help us to pursue them in a more systematic and informed way.  The information we can find and piece together about early Nephite history and worship during the "lost pages" period will provide quite a bit of grist for the mill as we continue to figure things out.

Don

Hi, you asked for critique.
You mentioned:  "the offices of king and high priest were joined in one man until the reign of the judges"

This would be contrary to the order of the priesthood. And since the priesthood doth not vary, but is Eternal, your statement presumes all the Kings during the reign of the Kings, were righteous.

Jacob 1:11 indicates the Kings were appointed by the people - as Nephi and Mosiah 1 were. If so, this would not give the King any priesthood authority.

Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would.

Nephi appointed a man to be his successor as King. There is no indication this second King was annointed as a High Priest. The footnote for "annointed" refers to the OT when Kings were annointed by the Prophet, not that they became the Prophet or presiding High Priest.

Jacob 1: 9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon adie; wherefore, he banointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the ckings.

Jacob 1:16 At this same time, Jacob wrote that he and his brother Joseph were consecrated as priests and teachers by their older brother Nephi - and that Jacob taught the people in the Temple.
Thus we see at the outset, at the death of their first King, Nephi, a separation between the King and Priesthood Leaders.

Years later, Jarom 1:7 also indicates a distinction between the Nephite Kings and their priesthood leaders.

But our kings and our leaders were mighty men in the faith of the Lord; and they taught the people the ways of the Lord; wherefore, we withstood the Lamanites ....

And as you know, the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood is part of or an appendage to the Melchizedek Priesthood and can only be conferred by one in authority holding the Melchizedek priesthood. We know this through modern-day revelation. (D&C 10.) If there were no descendants of Levi among the Nephites, then a Nephite could have had the lesser or Aaronic priesthood conferred upon him.
This and Jacob and Joseph being consecrated as Priests and Teachers and teaching in the Temple, 55 years after Lehi left Jerusalem (verse 1), could indicate the Levitical Priesthood was had among the Nephites.

This could be the reason why the Lord had the words of the OT Prophet Malachi given to the Nephites (3 Nephi 24). Because the Nephites did not have descendants of the tribe of Levi among them, (but they obviously knew of that tribe from the Plates of Brass). But this would not prevent the Aaronic priesthood to be conferred upon a Nephite, anymore than preventing the Aaronic Priesthood having been conferred upon the members of the tribe of Ephraim, Manasseh, etc., in the LDS Church.

Respectfully

Edited by ANACO, 08 August 2012 - 03:49 PM.


#34 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostANACO, on 08 August 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Hi, you asked for critique.
You mentioned:  "the offices of king and high priest were joined in one man until the reign of the judges"

This would be contrary to the order of the priesthood. And since the priesthood doth not vary, but is Eternal, your statement presumes all the Kings during the reign of the Kings, were righteous.

I would recommend this. http://calba-savua.b...igh-priest.html Certain powers and duties were considered either hereditary or part of the office, so a high priest could have been unrighteous, yet still officiate in or preside over certain duties.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#35 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:04 PM

View PostANACO, on 08 August 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Jacob 1:11 indicates the Kings were appointed by the people - as Nephi and Mosiah 1 were. If so, this would not give the King any priesthood authority.


Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would.


The people termed Nephi's successors Nephi II, III, IV, V, etc., even if their real names were, say, Yehoshua, Abiathar, Yehoshiyahu, Benayahu and Gedalyahu.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#36 ANACO

ANACO

    Member: Moves Upon the Waters

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:16 PM

View Postvolgadon, on 08 August 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:


The people termed Nephi's successors Nephi II, III, IV, V, etc., even if their real names were, say, Yehoshua, Abiathar, Yehoshiyahu, Benayahu and Gedalyahu.

I agree. . How about Janab Pakal, Butz'aj Sak Chihk, Ix Yohl Ik'nal and Kan Bahlam - assuming a Mesoamerica setting?

But they were approved of the people before being annointed the King, it appears. This doesn't indicate the King was always the presiding High Priest.
Mosiah I apparently was not their King, until after the Nephites arrived in Zarahemla - unless a revote was cast to include the People of Zarahemla.

regards

#37 volgadon

volgadon

    Crazy Israeli & Filthy Socialist

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,792 posts

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostANACO, on 08 August 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I agree. . How about Janab Pakal, Butz'aj Sak Chihk, Ix Yohl Ik'nal and Kan Bahlam - assuming a Mesoamerica setting?

But they were approved of the people before being annointed the King, it appears. This doesn't indicate the King was always the presiding High Priest.
Mosiah I apparently was not their King, until after the Nephites arrived in Zarahemla - unless a revote was cast to include the People of Zarahemla.

regards

It means the people didn't revolt, and had their own way of refering to the kings. I really don't don't see how these verses help your point.
Calba Savua's Orchard


I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo

i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon

#38 firepatch36

firepatch36

    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 449 posts

Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:25 PM

This is fascinating. I was looking forward to the bibliography to read up on what was discussed, but it was missing.

Here's the Ben McGuire article.

I think this is the Christensen article, but I haven't read through it yet to make sure it is.
The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else.    - Frederic Bastiat

#39 wenglund

wenglund

    Creates Man & Woman

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,464 posts

Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostAhab, on 07 August 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

God's glory is his intelligence.  Perhaps they should have just accepted it instead of putting up some kind of shield.

God's glory also consist of light, the brightness of which fallen man may be unable to bear.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
My Blog; You may be a useful idiot if...

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}

#40 wenglund

wenglund

    Creates Man & Woman

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,464 posts

Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:57 PM

View Postvolgadon, on 07 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I had a slightly different thought, based on the short work called Sefer Ha-Malbush (The Book of the Garment). After the usual preparations for holiness- fasting, sexual abstinence, ritual purity, specially prepared food and alms for the poor- one would inscribe the name of God on a mantle and hood made of deerskin, then step into water before donning the name. which gave power, protection and control over angels. The use of skins to handle the holy is interesting, as is the place wherein the ritual takes place: water. Just as the temple was the meeting place of heaven and earth, water was also seen as filling such a role, a part of the "lightworld," to borrow a Mandaean phrase.

Hmmmm...overtones of a certain modern coronation-like temple ritual, though water is substituted with oil.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
My Blog; You may be a useful idiot if...

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}



Also tagged with Don Bradley, Temple, FAIR, Book of Mormon, Lost 116 pages

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users