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The Offense And Defense Of Apoligetics


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#41 Tacenda

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:22 PM

Here are a couple of scriptures about worshipping Jesus...

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ... wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.”—2 Nephi 25:29
“...I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.”—1 Nephi 11:24
“Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.”—3 Nephi 11:17


Here is one on praying to Him....

Jesus came and stood in the midst...he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth. And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”—3 Nephi 19:15-18


These are the ones that were changed..from the original in 1830 here...

I Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of flesh.
I Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!
I Nephi 11:32 ...And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world...
I Nephi 13:40 ...that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world...


Also, this....

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”—Moroni 8:18
“...the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity...”—Mosiah 3:5


has been changed here....

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,...he was once a man like us...”—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346


Just another change to the BofM.

Edited by Tacenda, 08 August 2012 - 03:36 PM.

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#42 DBMormon

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:05 PM

jesus is the father in the old testament.  Elder ballard said this life is about being adopted his sons and daughters under the gospel covenant.  Jesus is the Father in many ways... this does not negate the fact he has a fther who organized our intelligences and put the plan of salvation in motion.  

Good talk on this
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#43 zerinus

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostTacenda, on 08 August 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Here are a couple of scriptures about worshipping Jesus...

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ... wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.”—2 Nephi 25:29
“...I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.”—1 Nephi 11:24
“Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.”—3 Nephi 11:17


Here is one on praying to Him....

Jesus came and stood in the midst...he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth. And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”—3 Nephi 19:15-18


These are the ones that were changed..from the original in 1830 here...

I Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of flesh.
I Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!
I Nephi 11:32 ...And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world...
I Nephi 13:40 ...that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world...


Also, this....

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”—Moroni 8:18
“...the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity...”—Mosiah 3:5


has been changed here....

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea,...he was once a man like us...”—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346


Just another change to the BofM.

I don't think that you are interested in a serious discussion. I have serious doubts that you are a Mormon at all. You appear to be another one of those anti-Mormon trolls who come here pretending to be a Mormonin order to stir things up.

#44 Tacenda

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:27 PM

View Postzerinus, on 08 August 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't think that you are interested in a serious discussion. I have serious doubts that you are a Mormon at all. You appear to be another one of those anti-Mormon trolls who come here pretending to be a Mormonin order to stir things up.

Nope, I've been LDS all my life, married in the temple, current temple recommend holder.  Many callings, etc.  Never inactive while married for many years.  Short inactivity as a youth.  I stumbled onto some info that threw me into the quandry of if I should be in the church.  And have been struggling for several years.  Haven't been able to leap in either direction.  Come here for the social aspect because I can't discuss this with members of my ward, need answers, but not trying to hurt anyones testimony, but think I've crossed the line apparently here.  So sorry.

Edited by Tacenda, 08 August 2012 - 05:30 PM.

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#45 Nemesis

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

View Postzerinus, on 08 August 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't think that you are interested in a serious discussion. I have serious doubts that you are a Mormon at all. You appear to be another one of those anti-Mormon trolls who come here pretending to be a Mormonin order to stir things up.

Sigh! There you go mind reading again.  We don't allow this behavior and you know better.

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#46 DBMormon

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:16 PM

Tacenda, I consider you sincere for what it is worth... Faith crisis questions are difficult to answer it sometimes seems like your chasing the inevitable... hang there... I know firsthand.
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#47 Tacenda

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

View PostDBMormon, on 08 August 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Tacenda, I consider you sincere for what it is worth... Faith crisis questions are difficult to answer it sometimes seems like your chasing the inevitable... hang there... I know firsthand.

Thanks DB, I've noticed you are sure coming around.  Me, I go two steps forward and then one step back and can't get my act together.  Tonight I went to a ward pool party.  It was wonderful.  I didn't get in the pool but had fun socializing.  The members of my ward mean the world to me.
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#48 Benjamin McGuire

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:44 AM

Ok so the issue of God in the Book of Mormon.

I think we have several issues there. What might be helpful (at least as a starting point) is to look at a bit in the Old Testament - which is at least as confusing to Christianity in general (including LDS) in terms of trying to understand how it relates to our own theological models. Psalm 82 is one of those classic texts. Here are two translations of the first verse:

NIV: God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:

KJV: God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

What is interesting for us is that a word that can be translated "god" occurs three times in this verse. So here is the KJV with the Hebrew put back in (and with that Hebrew there, you can start to see how and why the translations do what they do with the text):

Elohim standeth in the congregation of the El; he judgeth among the Elohim.

The same word is first translated as "God" and then as "gods". The Second title is reduced to referring to something else. What it really refers to shows up in verse 6 (again in the two versions):

NIV: “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

KJV: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

And here again is the modified KJV:

I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are children of Elyon.

Within a cultural context, we have Elyon, the Most High (God), who presides over his divine assembly (the assembly of El). The members of that assembly are collectively called his sons - they are the Elohim. And the speaker for most of this Psalm is one of their number - one of the Elohim. In an Israelite context, this would presumably be YHWH - although in some ways, this Psalm is almost generic in its text. A Canaanite might be just fine singing this Psalm with the understanding that the singular Elohim who stands to judge his companions in the divine assembly was Ba'al.

For part of the history of Israelite religion, YHWH was seen as one of the Elohim - one of the sons of El Elyon. As a stricter an stricter monotheism develops, the notion of a divine assembly fades.

Nephi comes out of an Israel/Judah that is just undergoing a reform. And at least from my reading, Lehi and Nephi are not very happy with the reform Judaism that they are leaving in Jerusalem. At least from that perspective, seeing a God (Elohim) the son of God (El) wouldn't be entirely out of place in their writings - even while it could be a potential source of confusion among modern LDS trying to read the text. And the emphasis occurs in different places in different ways in the Book of Mormon.

You note that Joseph changed the text to insert the "Son of" in the Book of Mormon, which he did in four different places: 1 Nephi 11:18, 11:21, 11:32 and 13:40. But, there are other places where that phrase existed already in the original text and did not need to be modified: 1 Nephi 10:17, 11:7. And there are places where he could have changed it, but didn't - like 2 Nephi 25:12 or Mosiah 3:8, and so on.

It's been speculated that the actual reasons for the changes in 1 Nephi 11 are not really to clarify the text, but rather as a way of deflecting the criticism of Alexander Campbell, who noted in an early critical piece (reproduced by the way in the Messenger and Advocate in 1835 - five years before Joseph published the second edition with the changes) that the phrase as it stood in the first edition in 1 Nephi 11:18 was very Catholic - "The Mother of God". The references to the Eternal Father are more interesting. I can understand the use much better in the rest of the Book of Mormon than in Nephi's works, since the Book of Mormon shows clear indications of a liturgical title being used in the parts redacted by Mormon and Moroni (in a very long form, a couple of long forms, and a couple of short forms). To suggest that Nephi only took the part "eternal father" from Isaiah's compound name in Isaiah 9:6, is certainly possible, but the way that everything else in 9:6 is virtually ignored makes it a less useful argument perhaps. But, there may have been a corresponding usage elsewhere on the Brass Plates that we aren't aware of that would have made such a usage much more likely (had another prophet used just that phrase for example - but that's pretty speculative for my tastes).

In any case, a notion like God, the son of God, is much more representative of a pre-exilic Old Testament theology moved into our language without the words to create as nuanced a picture as the Hebrew does (the same sort of problems we find in translations of Psalm 82 - with a similar additional problem of differences in the underlying theological model of divinity that we find in Mormonism and in other modern Christianities).

As far as the related issue of the worship of Jesus, I think that we have a couple of components there. The first is that there is clearly a pushback in the remarks made by McConkie (on which a great deal of this discussion rests) towards specific ideas and beliefs (some of them not LDS). Later leaders, in particular Hinckley, have made some movement away from that sort of interpretation of McConkie's remarks. Perhaps a more nuanced statement would be that LDS rather emphatically suggest that the worship of Jesus in a way excusively of the other members of the Godhead is inappropriate. That if we single out any member for worship we should single out God the Father.

Often the example of the Lord's prayer is presented as an example of why we should pray to the Father (only), but, that does seem a bit problematic in light of the Book of Mormon accounts in which (the resurrected) Jesus is prayed to. We wouldn't expect the mortal Jesus to hold himself up as an object to be worshiped, or even as one to be prayed to. But, the resurrected Jesus might be seen in a different light. LDS leaders (at least in the past) have suggested they are aware of the incongruity, and attempted to explain that praying to a resurrected Jesus who is present is perhaps acceptable - while falling back on the more traditional position that when we pray we should follow the example that Jesus set (both in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon) of praying to the Father. I think this fits into the idea that if we are going to pick a member of the Godhead to deliver our devotion to, it should be to the Father and not to the Son, although we can certainly worship the Son as part of that Godhead in a more general sense. (And of course its more difficult to speak of these kinds of issues without wading into the sometimes murky waters of debates over the nature of the trinity).

If I had to make a personal statement on the issue, it would be this. Worship occurs in a lot of different ways. Jesus is our revelation of God. We come to know God through Jesus - and I think that part of what this means is that we strive to live increasingly Christ-like lives. True worship isn't just prayer, or singing hymns, or attending church or the temple - it is emulating Christ. And we worship both God the Father and God the Son when we emulate the actions and attitudes of Jesus Christ. We too become a revelation of God.

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#49 Kevin Christensen

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostTacenda, on 08 August 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yes, but it has softened it's tone in the D&C.  So it has changed from the BofM.
Most of the teaching about the afterlife in the Book of Mormon comes from Alma.

http://maxwellinstit...l=2&num=1&id=16

In particular, regarding the duration of hell in the Book of Mormon compared to D&C 19,  pay close attention to Alma's experience:

Quote

In the Grofs' discussion, the process of psychological death and rebirth "bears a striking similarity to the events described through the ages in shamanistic initiation, rites of passage, temple mysteries, and in the ecstatic religions of many ancient and preliterate cultures."12 They identify the first of three stages as cosmic engulfment, related to the onset of biological delivery, beginning with "an overwhelming feeling of anxiety and an awareness of a vital threat."13 This corresponds to Alma's shock at seeing the angel.
The second stage is no exit, related to "the second stage of delivery in which uterine contractions encroach on the foetus, but the cervix is closed." Subjectively, "the situation is inescapable and eternal. There is no hope and no way out either in space or in time."14
Notice how Alma describes a longing for annihilation while he felt "racked with eternal torment," being "encircled about by the everlasting chains of death" (Alma 36:12, 18). Concerning "the ordeal of hell," the Grofs write:


The feeling that suffering is eternal is an essential experimental attribute of hell. The endlessness of this state does not consist in an extreme extension of linear time, but in its transcendence. The individual undergoes tortures beyond any imagining which at that point are the only available reality; since the sense of the linear flow of time is lost, there appears to be no way out. It is only when this situation is fully accepted that one has experienced hell, and the journey can continue.15

In Alma's account of his torment, the terms "everlasting" and "eternal" do not refer to duration, but to quality. Alma reports that his "eternal torment" lasted for three days (cf. D&C 19:1–21).
The third stage is the death-rebirth struggle. Again, the Grofs' description illuminates Alma's experience.


The "death and rebirth" phase represents the termination and resolution of the "death-rebirth struggle." Suffering and agony culminate in an experience of total annihilation on all levels—physical, emotional, intellectual, moral, and transcendental. . . . Such annihilation is often followed by visions of blinding white or golden light and a sense of liberating decompression and expansion. The universe is perceived as indescribably beautiful and radiant; subjects feel themselves cleansed and purged, and speak of redemption, salvation, moksha, or samadhi. Numerous images of emerging into light from darkness, glorious opening of the heavens, revelation of the divine . . . and the final victory of the pure religious impulse, express this state of consciousness. . . . In death and rebirth mythologies, the correspondence is with the revival and resurrection of the sacrificed god.16

On the changes in the Book of Mormon in light of First Temple Theology:  see Brant Gardner here:

http://www.fairlds.o...nd-mormons-book

On the Mother of God issue in the Book of Mormon, you can get a good start here:

http://www.joehunt.o...arker-talk.html

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
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#50 Tacenda

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 02:11 PM

View PostBenjamin McGuire, on 09 August 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Ok so the issue of God in the Book of Mormon.

I think we have several issues there. What might be helpful (at least as a starting point) is to look at a bit in the Old Testament - which is at least as confusing to Christianity in general (including LDS) in terms of trying to understand how it relates to our own theological models. Psalm 82 is one of those classic texts. Here are two translations of the first verse:

NIV: God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:

KJV: God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

What is interesting for us is that a word that can be translated "god" occurs three times in this verse. So here is the KJV with the Hebrew put back in (and with that Hebrew there, you can start to see how and why the translations do what they do with the text):

Elohim standeth in the congregation of the El; he judgeth among the Elohim.

The same word is first translated as "God" and then as "gods". The Second title is reduced to referring to something else. What it really refers to shows up in verse 6 (again in the two versions):

NIV: “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

KJV: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

And here again is the modified KJV:

I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are children of Elyon.

Within a cultural context, we have Elyon, the Most High (God), who presides over his divine assembly (the assembly of El). The members of that assembly are collectively called his sons - they are the Elohim. And the speaker for most of this Psalm is one of their number - one of the Elohim. In an Israelite context, this would presumably be YHWH - although in some ways, this Psalm is almost generic in its text. A Canaanite might be just fine singing this Psalm with the understanding that the singular Elohim who stands to judge his companions in the divine assembly was Ba'al.

For part of the history of Israelite religion, YHWH was seen as one of the Elohim - one of the sons of El Elyon. As a stricter an stricter monotheism develops, the notion of a divine assembly fades.

Nephi comes out of an Israel/Judah that is just undergoing a reform. And at least from my reading, Lehi and Nephi are not very happy with the reform Judaism that they are leaving in Jerusalem. At least from that perspective, seeing a God (Elohim) the son of God (El) wouldn't be entirely out of place in their writings - even while it could be a potential source of confusion among modern LDS trying to read the text. And the emphasis occurs in different places in different ways in the Book of Mormon.

You note that Joseph changed the text to insert the "Son of" in the Book of Mormon, which he did in four different places: 1 Nephi 11:18, 11:21, 11:32 and 13:40. But, there are other places where that phrase existed already in the original text and did not need to be modified: 1 Nephi 10:17, 11:7. And there are places where he could have changed it, but didn't - like 2 Nephi 25:12 or Mosiah 3:8, and so on.

It's been speculated that the actual reasons for the changes in 1 Nephi 11 are not really to clarify the text, but rather as a way of deflecting the criticism of Alexander Campbell, who noted in an early critical piece (reproduced by the way in the Messenger and Advocate in 1835 - five years before Joseph published the second edition with the changes) that the phrase as it stood in the first edition in 1 Nephi 11:18 was very Catholic - "The Mother of God". The references to the Eternal Father are more interesting. I can understand the use much better in the rest of the Book of Mormon than in Nephi's works, since the Book of Mormon shows clear indications of a liturgical title being used in the parts redacted by Mormon and Moroni (in a very long form, a couple of long forms, and a couple of short forms). To suggest that Nephi only took the part "eternal father" from Isaiah's compound name in Isaiah 9:6, is certainly possible, but the way that everything else in 9:6 is virtually ignored makes it a less useful argument perhaps. But, there may have been a corresponding usage elsewhere on the Brass Plates that we aren't aware of that would have made such a usage much more likely (had another prophet used just that phrase for example - but that's pretty speculative for my tastes).

In any case, a notion like God, the son of God, is much more representative of a pre-exilic Old Testament theology moved into our language without the words to create as nuanced a picture as the Hebrew does (the same sort of problems we find in translations of Psalm 82 - with a similar additional problem of differences in the underlying theological model of divinity that we find in Mormonism and in other modern Christianities).

As far as the related issue of the worship of Jesus, I think that we have a couple of components there. The first is that there is clearly a pushback in the remarks made by McConkie (on which a great deal of this discussion rests) towards specific ideas and beliefs (some of them not LDS). Later leaders, in particular Hinckley, have made some movement away from that sort of interpretation of McConkie's remarks. Perhaps a more nuanced statement would be that LDS rather emphatically suggest that the worship of Jesus in a way excusively of the other members of the Godhead is inappropriate. That if we single out any member for worship we should single out God the Father.

Often the example of the Lord's prayer is presented as an example of why we should pray to the Father (only), but, that does seem a bit problematic in light of the Book of Mormon accounts in which (the resurrected) Jesus is prayed to. We wouldn't expect the mortal Jesus to hold himself up as an object to be worshiped, or even as one to be prayed to. But, the resurrected Jesus might be seen in a different light. LDS leaders (at least in the past) have suggested they are aware of the incongruity, and attempted to explain that praying to a resurrected Jesus who is present is perhaps acceptable - while falling back on the more traditional position that when we pray we should follow the example that Jesus set (both in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon) of praying to the Father. I think this fits into the idea that if we are going to pick a member of the Godhead to deliver our devotion to, it should be to the Father and not to the Son, although we can certainly worship the Son as part of that Godhead in a more general sense. (And of course its more difficult to speak of these kinds of issues without wading into the sometimes murky waters of debates over the nature of the trinity).

If I had to make a personal statement on the issue, it would be this. Worship occurs in a lot of different ways. Jesus is our revelation of God. We come to know God through Jesus - and I think that part of what this means is that we strive to live increasingly Christ-like lives. True worship isn't just prayer, or singing hymns, or attending church or the temple - it is emulating Christ. And we worship both God the Father and God the Son when we emulate the actions and attitudes of Jesus Christ. We too become a revelation of God.

Ben M.

View PostKevin Christensen, on 09 August 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Most of the teaching about the afterlife in the Book of Mormon comes from Alma.

http://maxwellinstit...l=2&num=1&id=16

In particular, regarding the duration of hell in the Book of Mormon compared to D&C 19,  pay close attention to Alma's experience:

On the changes in the Book of Mormon in light of First Temple Theology:  see Brant Gardner here:

http://www.fairlds.o...nd-mormons-book

On the Mother of God issue in the Book of Mormon, you can get a good start here:

http://www.joehunt.o...arker-talk.html

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA


I read all the writings from both of your replies, it took me a long time because I had to read over each sentence on the links, many times.  I saw that FAIRMORMON used alot of what was in Margaret Barker's letter.  It was really interesting how Margaret conjoined alot ot Lehi's experience with the Old Testament and how she thought the revelations to Joseph Smith were consistent with the situation in Jerusalem at about 600 B.C.E.  There are many things to ponder and think about.  I really appreciate the time you both took on this.  Instead of just assuming I had alterior motives.  I just wish it didn't mostly go over my head a bit.  So if you both ever feel inclined to dumb it down for me that would be great. (haha)  

I feel I need to be honest on one thing so you can see why I'm struggling with this.  As I listen to the likes of the dreaded anti mormon Shawn McCraney, he puts over that if we don't accept Jesus as being God in the flesh, we might go to the place called "hell" and also, if we aren't born again, etc.  So therefore I'm constantly thinking this might be the case or that we might be following a false prophet (J.S.) So now you might be thinking satan has taken hold of me. Which is something I would assume would happen.  But when there are scriptures in the bible I'd never heard of that point to that, it keeps me from progressing.  If it weren't for people like you who don't jump to conclusions in thinking I'm anti, who knows where I'd be.  Even my bishop who knows of my concerns and lack of testimony, is very kind and friendly to me despite it.

Edited by Tacenda, 09 August 2012 - 02:28 PM.

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#51 Evangeline

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:04 PM

View PostTacenda, on 09 August 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

As I listen to the likes of the dreaded anti mormon Shawn McCraney, he puts over that if we don't accept Jesus as being God in the flesh, we might go to the place called "hell" and also, if we aren't born again, etc.  So therefore I'm constantly thinking this might be the case or that we might be following a false prophet (J.S.)

Tacenda, I can't accept the idea that anyone who doesn't become a "born again" Christian will go to h###.  Why even entertain such a terrible notion?  I have many friends who are not Christians, but they are wonderful, loving human beings who teach me so much.  I want nothing but the best for them, and I believe that they will all have a chance to accept the gospel, even if it is after mortality.  I could never accept the idea that they are all condemned to eternal torment because they didn't follow some formula in this life.  Frankly, that doesn't even sound like the God I believe in.

#52 Tacenda

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostEvangeline, on 09 August 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:



Tacenda, I can't accept the idea that anyone who doesn't become a "born again" Christian will go to h###.  Why even entertain such a terrible notion?  I have many friends who are not Christians, but they are wonderful, loving human beings who teach me so much.  I want nothing but the best for them, and I believe that they will all have a chance to accept the gospel, even if it is after mortality.  I could never accept the idea that they are all condemned to eternal torment because they didn't follow some formula in this life.  Frankly, that doesn't even sound like the God I believe in.

Yes, the LDS version is much nicer. I guess I'm worried I have a false sense of security. I really do need to get a life. I want to go back to the safe place I once had in the church,  where as long you're doing the best you can, then you'll be fine.

Edited by Tacenda, 09 August 2012 - 05:27 PM.

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#53 Kevin Christensen

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:08 AM

View PostTacenda, on 09 August 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I read all the writings from both of your replies, it took me a long time because I had to read over each sentence on the links, many times.  I saw that FAIRMORMON used alot of what was in Margaret Barker's letter.  It was really interesting how Margaret conjoined alot ot Lehi's experience with the Old Testament and how she thought the revelations to Joseph Smith were consistent with the situation in Jerusalem at about 600 B.C.E.  There are many things to ponder and think about.  I really appreciate the time you both took on this.  Instead of just assuming I had alterior motives.  I just wish it didn't mostly go over my head a bit.  So if you both ever feel inclined to dumb it down for me that would be great. (haha)  

I feel I need to be honest on one thing so you can see why I'm struggling with this.  As I listen to the likes of the dreaded anti mormon Shawn McCraney, he puts over that if we don't accept Jesus as being God in the flesh, we might go to the place called "hell" and also, if we aren't born again, etc.  So therefore I'm constantly thinking this might be the case or that we might be following a false prophet (J.S.) So now you might be thinking satan has taken hold of me. Which is something I would assume would happen.  But when there are scriptures in the bible I'd never heard of that point to that, it keeps me from progressing.  If it weren't for people like you who don't jump to conclusions in thinking I'm anti, who knows where I'd be.  Even my bishop who knows of my concerns and lack of testimony, is very kind and friendly to me despite it.
I'm glad you've found this helpful.  Ben is one of the best informed and perceptive participants on this board.

Regarding your anxiety about the possibility of following a false prophet, you might find this helpful:

http://en.fairmormon..._False_Prophets

It's designed to let you explore at your own pace, and at the level of detail you can handle.

Best,

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

#54 Tacenda

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:43 AM

View PostKevin Christensen, on 10 August 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:


I'm glad you've found this helpful.  Ben is one of the best informed and perceptive participants on this board.

Regarding your anxiety about the possibility of following a false prophet, you might find this helpful:

http://en.fairmormon..._False_Prophets

It's designed to let you explore at your own pace, and at the level of detail you can handle.

Best,

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks for the link. And so thankful for this board!
middlewayer

#55 Ahab

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

View PostWilliam Schryver, on 06 August 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Apologetics is, by its very nature, a response to a pre-existing criticism.  Therefore it is fundamentally a defensive posture.  That said, it can be executed in such a way that critics are placed in the position of having to defend their weak arguments.
That's my tactic and I'm sticking to it.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord.  He is my Life.  He is all I desire to be.

Speaking against the NATURE of sin:  To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

#56 USU78

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:57 AM

View PostTacenda, on 08 August 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Come here for the social aspect because I can't discuss this with members of my ward, need answers, but not trying to hurt anyones testimony, but think I've crossed the line apparently here.  So sorry.

You have nothing to be sorry about, T.

No lines anywhere in sight.
In the immortal words of? Socrates...I DRANK WHAT???!!!

#57 Tacenda

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostUSU78, on 13 August 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

You have nothing to be sorry about, T.

No lines anywhere in sight.

Thanks USU78.  No lines?  No wonder I like this board so much!

Edited by Tacenda, 13 August 2012 - 11:13 AM.

middlewayer

#58 Vance

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

View PostKevin Christensen, on 10 August 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I'm glad you've found this helpful.  Ben is one of the best informed and perceptive participants on this board.

Regarding your anxiety about the possibility of following a false prophet, you might find this helpful:

http://en.fairmormon..._False_Prophets

It's designed to let you explore at your own pace, and at the level of detail you can handle.

Best,

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA
Thank you for the work you did.
"Remember kids! In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant." Stephen Colbert

"Because some people need to be dealt with reality, they have been coddled their whole lives, and when they're morons I have the guts and the compassion to let them know that they're morons."  Mark Levin.

"Vance is truly the devil's right hand man and his multiplicity of sins testifies to that." & "Your heart is truly filled with evil, a true thistle through and through." Echo of the "truth in love ministry".


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