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What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

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Why are you even intrested, . . . why do you care about any verses I might present to demonstrate how LDS worship a false Jesus?

Oh, I don't know, how about because I need a good laugh? Or, I like to see silliness on display?

Edited by Vance

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NOT SO FAST there buddy.

As the official "devil's right hand man" (as declared by echo, an official representative of Modern American Protestant Christian Evangelical) I will not let you in. You will have to find somewhere else to spend eternity.

Fine- as a Latter-day Saints I'd just irrigate hell, plant seeds and turn it into a garden. As a Southerner i would add air conditioning. It would ruin the property values for those who prefer hellfire and brimstone anyway.

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Why are you even intrested, if you distinguish between real Christs and false Christs by your feeling of having recieved a 'testamony of the Holy Ghost' about it why do you care about any verses I might present to demonstrate how LDS worship a false Jesus?

ARe you saying you DON'T use the Holy Ghost to teach you truth?

Besides that issue-what other verses (we've covered the 'one God of the OT' angle so we don't need to go that route again) do you have? I'm personally interested in seeing these.

Edited by bluebell

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Is it true, that people who have NOT actually experience the witness of the Holy Ghost like to mock people who claim to have?

Sure seems that way.

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ARe you saying you DON'T use the Holy Ghost to teach you truth?

Besides that issue-what other verses (we've covered the 'one God of the OT' angle so we don't need to go that route again) do you have? I'm personally interested in seeing these.

I don't 'use' the Holy Ghost - I am taught by the Holy Spirit through the word of God. Further any spiritual experiences or insights I recieve I test by the word of God because the Holy Spirit will not reveal anything contrary to what he has already revealled in the Bible.

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Why are you even intrested, if you distinguish between real Christs and false Christs by your feeling of having recieved a 'testamony of the Holy Ghost' about it why do you care about any verses I might present to demonstrate how LDS worship a false Jesus?

You mischaracterize a witness of the Holy Ghost as a "feeling". While feelings are involved a testimony of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit is much more involved and sure.

Nehimiah:9:20 Thou gavest also thy good aspirit to binstruct them, and withheldest not thy cmanna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

John 15:26 But when the aComforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall btestify of me:

Acts 5:32 And we are his awitnesses of these things; and so is also thebHoly Ghost, whom God hath cgiven to them that obey him.

1 Corinthians 2: 9 But as it is written, aEye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hathbprepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath arevealed them unto us by his bSpirit: for thecSpirit dsearcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man aknoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God bknoweth no man,cbut the dSpirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the aspirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’sawisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost bteacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the anatural man breceiveth not the things of the cSpirit of God: for they are dfoolishness unto him: neither can he eknowthem, because they are fspiritually gdiscerned.

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I don't 'use' the Holy Ghost - I am taught by the Holy Spirit through the word of God. Further any spiritual experiences or insights I recieve I test by the word of God because the Holy Spirit will not reveal anything contrary to what he has already revealled in the Bible.

So, in other words, you "know" it is the "Holy Spirit" when it agrees with your preconceptions and interpretations.

Got it.

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In a whisper,

Kevin, did you know that you can turn off the footnotes? See the upper right hand corner.

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In a whisper,

Kevin, did you know that you can turn off the footnotes? See the upper right hand corner.

Show me where it says that in Today's New International Version (2005) of the Bible or I won't believe you.

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Show me where it says that in Today's New International Version (2005) of the Bible or I won't believe you.

Ouch!!! You got me.

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Would you consider Jehovah's Witnesses as "Christians" when their Jesus is Michael the Archangel? Would

Muslims also be Christians when they accept the teachings of Jesus but he is only a man?

Basically, is there the possibility that one can follow a false Christ and still claim to believe he is the true one?

Thanks,

Jim

And here I thought that who so ever calls on the name of Jesus Christ shall be saved.

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Jesus and Paul certainly didn't just take people at their word on issues of faith. They harshly rebuked people for beliefs or practices.

And yet Paul himself contradicts your assertion when he wrote Romans Chapter 14.

Who are you to judge another mans servant?

Edited by Zakuska

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For example:

"You will go to hell if you believe in the Mormon doctrine."

- Matt Slick

Comments like that disgust me. And I believe they disgust God too.

I think Paul would too. Not once in all of Pauls writtings does he say that people will go to hell for "beleiving" the wrong thing.

However, there are a miriad of times Paul says that people will Go to hell for "doing" the wrong thing. (eg. Adultery, Lying, Cheating, Murder, etc.)

Edited by Zakuska

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Ok so following on from my previous posts;

I have shared a few verses that provide examples of the monotheistic background from the OT from which Jesus was speaking, for example

Deuteronomy 4:35-39

Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightiest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him... know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Then when we get to the NT we see that as regards to monotheism nothing changes. There is no revelation that whilst in the OT there was only 1 God now we know there are 3 or 4 or many more. Instead we see that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are represented as all 3 being this God.

For example in Matthew 28 when Jesus gives the great commission we see Jesus sending out his disciples to baptise in the name of.... not think for a moment. If you are familiar with the OT what is the name of God? Jehovah is often (but not exclusively) used in conjunction with the phrase ‘the name’ The great name of Jehovah. But in the great commission Jesus commands to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Spirit. Where we would expect something to be done in the name of God in the OT it is done in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.

Notice also that it is in the name not names. To Jesus the Father, Son and Spirit was 1 name, why? Because the Father, Son and Spirit are one God – not just one God in purpose for then they would be three different names, but one God in existence, in being.

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Instead of a declaration of there really being more than one God in existence we see Jesus and the NT writers identifying Jesus as that God whilst in no way removing the Father as that God as well.

One way in which John does this is through the use of the ‘I am’ statements. Again a couple of examples;

Isaiah 41:4

Who has performed and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, am the first; And with the last I am He.

John 13:18-20

I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

Notice the similar context. In Isaiah the I am He statement is associated with God’s knowledge of history and future events.

Jesus them makes a prediction about the future so that when it takes place his disciples will recognise that Jesus is the ‘I am He’ of Isaiah – he is the only one true God in existence.

Or in John 8:58 we read

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then they took up stones to cast at him.

The Jews recognised the connection Jesus was making by referring to himself as the ‘I am.’ They were going to stone Jesus. Again and again we see them going to stone him, why would this be if it wasn’t that He was claiming the divinity that was due to God alone. If there are lots of other gods out there what is wrong with Jesus claiming to be God?

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Another way that Jesus divinity is demonstrated is through the fact that He shares in the glory of God – the glory which is due to no other thing in existence.

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:9-11

For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

Or on other places Jesus is simple referred to as the God of the OT

John 20:28

And Thomas answered and said unto him. My Lord and my God! Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Finally we also see that by identifying Jesus as the creator the NT identifies Jesus as the God of the OT:

Isaiah 44:24

This saith the Lord , thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord, that maketh all things; that streatcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

John 1:1...14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Colossians 1:16-17

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, wheter they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, all things were created by him, and for him, and he is before all things, and by him all things consist

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Therefore in the words of the NT, against the background of the OT view of there only being one God in existed who has existed as God forever, we get a clear picture of person of Jesus Christ being the God of the OT. Yet not in a way the negates the Father also being the God of the OT (and of course I would also say the Holy Spirit).

Thus when someone who says they are followers of the Jesus of the NT and yet believe 1) that he hasn’t existed eternally as God and 2) that he isn’t the only God in existence (but 1 of many) and 3) he isn’t equal with the Father and 4) isn’t the creator of everything including the devil – but is actually a spirit brother of the devil and 5) was begotten in the flesh by the father, then I am forced to conclude that the Jesus they are following is not the Jesus presented to us in the NT. They may say they are following his commands until they are blue in the face however if they do not know the Jesus presented in the NT then they are deluded if they think they can obey his commands.

And this is not a side issue like so many of you seem to think. Jesus himself said:

John 8:23-24

You are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said, therefore, unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Believing that Jesus is the ‘I am he’ is essential . If you do not believe that there will be no Gods formed before or after Jesus - or that the real Jesus has said he knows of no other Gods period then you do not believe that Jesus is the ‘I am he’ even though Jesus himself refers to himself as this ‘I am he’ from Isaiah. If this is the case according to Jesus (not me) you will die in your sins.

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I don't 'use' the Holy Ghost - I am taught by the Holy Spirit through the word of God.

This seems like semantics just for the purpose of being snarky. Is there a legitimate reason you felt the need to make this distinction?

Further any spiritual experiences or insights I recieve I test by the word of God because the Holy Spirit will not reveal anything contrary to what he has already revealled in the Bible.

There were quite a few people in Jesus' time who felt the same way, and who would not accept Him as the Messiah because He did not match who they believed the scriptures described the Messiah to be. They didn't need the Spirit, they had the scriptures.

I can very much respect your view, but do you worry that it makes it difficult for the Spirit to teach you, when you put the scriptures on a higher pedestal than the Spirit?

Edited by bluebell

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This seems like semantics just for the purpose of being snarky. Is there a legitimate reason you felt the need to make this distinction?

There were quite a few people in Jesus' time who felt the same way, and who would not accept Him as the Messiah because He did not match who they believed the scriptures described the Messiah to be. They didn't need the Spirit, they had the scriptures.

I can very much respect your view, but do you worry that it makes it difficult for the Spirit to teach you, when you put the scriptures on a higher pedestal than the Spirit?

I do feel like I need to make this distinction because form the epistemology I seem to encounter talking to LDS your emotions/feelings about what you experience seem to end up determening what is and what isn't a witness from the Holy Spirit.

I don't worry that it makes it difficult to be taught because I believe the Bible's very words were inspired by the Holy Spirit-it is no difficulty for the Spirit to speak through his own words.

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Ok so following on from my previous posts;

I have shared a few verses that provide examples of the monotheistic background from the OT from which Jesus was speaking, for example

Deuteronomy 4:35-39

Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightiest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him... know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Then when we get to the NT we see that as regards to monotheism nothing changes. There is no revelation that whilst in the OT there was only 1 God now we know there are 3 or 4 or many more. Instead we see that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are represented as all 3 being this God.

For example in Matthew 28 when Jesus gives the great commission we see Jesus sending out his disciples to baptise in the name of.... not think for a moment. If you are familiar with the OT what is the name of God? Jehovah is often (but not exclusively) used in conjunction with the phrase ‘the name’ The great name of Jehovah. But in the great commission Jesus commands to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Spirit. Where we would expect something to be done in the name of God in the OT it is done in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.

Notice also that it is in the name not names. To Jesus the Father, Son and Spirit was 1 name, why? Because the Father, Son and Spirit are one God – not just one God in purpose for then they would be three different names, but one God in existence, in being.

It's important to understand the meaning of 'one' in these verses. It does not mean one literally, but one figuratively-one in purpose. That's why when the scriptures teach that a man and woman will become one when married, or when they teach that we are capable of becoming one with Christ exactly as He is one with the Father-they don't mean that literally, they don't mean 'one being'.

Jesus Himself teaches us this when He says-"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

God, in this declaration, is not something that Jesus is a part of. It is a Being separate from Jesus, someone who is HIS God, not someone who is co-equal or co-substantial with Him.

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I do feel like I need to make this distinction because form the epistemology I seem to encounter talking to LDS your emotions/feelings about what you experience seem to end up determening what is and what isn't a witness from the Holy Spirit.

I don't worry that it makes it difficult to be taught because I believe the Bible's very words were inspired by the Holy Spirit-it is no difficulty for the Spirit to speak through his own words.

You are once again setting yourself up as a judge of the Latter-day Saints and if they believe in God, receive knowledge through the Holy Spirit or know Christ.

It is getting very difficult to accept you know anything about us at all.

CFR that we believe:

1) that Jesus Christ hasn’t existed eternally as God

2) that God isn’t the only God in existence (but 1 of many)

3) Jesus Christ isn’t equal with the Father

5) was begotten in the flesh by the father

CFR that the Bible teaches

4a) Jesus Christ created everything including the devil

Please use our doctrines (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants - and throw in General Conference addresses for good measure) and not some anti-Mormon screed.

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I do feel like I need to make this distinction because form the epistemology I seem to encounter talking to LDS your emotions/feelings about what you experience seem to end up determening what is and what isn't a witness from the Holy Spirit.

I don't worry that it makes it difficult to be taught because I believe the Bible's very words were inspired by the Holy Spirit-it is no difficulty for the Spirit to speak through his own words.

So, you make the distinction simply to imply that YOU use the Holy Ghost in the right way and LDS use it in the wrong way?

And I completely agree that it is not difficult for the Spirit to speak through His own words, as long as the person is humble enough to hear Him. Obviously the bible itself and history through-out the ages are filled with examples of people who used the scriptures in ways that were abhorant to God. In the most extreme example, the pharisees and sadduccees used God's word to bring about the crucifixtion of Christ.

Obviously, God's word being inspired does NOT mean that men can't completely misunderstand them, or use them to do harm even when they think they are doing God's will.

In those cases, the Spirit could NOT speak through His own words, because the person reading them did not really care what He had to say.

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Ok so following on from my previous posts;

I have shared a few verses that provide examples of the monotheistic background from the OT from which Jesus was speaking,. . .

No, what you have provided is NOT examples of "monotheistic background", but rather examples of God's preeminence.

for example

Deuteronomy 4:35-39

Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightiest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him... know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Yes, that is an example of preeminence, not exclusion.

Then when we get to the NT we see that as regards to monotheism nothing changes.

TRUE!!! Because "monotheism isn't found there either.

There is no revelation that whilst in the OT there was only 1 God now we know there are 3 or 4 or many more. Instead we see that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are represented as all 3 being this God.

One wonders if you understand the meaning of "monotheism". The doctrine of the Trinity isn't "monotheistic".

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Another way that Jesus divinity is demonstrated is through the fact that He shares in the glory of God – the glory which is due to no other thing in existence.

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:9-11

For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was

<snip>

So according to you God will not give his Glory to another being "in all of existance" yet... isn't that exactly what John/Jesus says he did?

John 17

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.According to this God won't give his Glory to another yet he gave it to the Son and then the son gave it to the disciples?!

Why is God contradicting himself?

:huh:

Edited by Zakuska

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