1241 replies to this topic

[bluebell]

And I don't mean, what are the doctrines that someone must believe to be saved.  I mean, how does the NT define who a Christian is?

[calmoriah]

And please use quotes from the NT, don't just make a claim about what the NT says...document it.

[Zakuska]

I would contend that:

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

This defines a Christian as a "diciple" of Christ.  What is the definition of Disciple?

Websters:

dis·ci·ple

Definition of DISCIPLE



1
: one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as
a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts
b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual

2
capitalized: a member of the Disciples of Christ founded in the United States in 1809 that holds the Bible alone to be the rule of faith and practice, usually baptizes by immersion, and has a congregational polity
— dis·ci·ple·ship

\-ˌship\noun

Mormons definately are "convinced adherents".

Edited by Zakuska, 31 July 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[CV75]

bluebell, on 31 July 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

And I don't mean, what are the doctrines that someone must believe to be saved.  I mean, how does the NT define who a Christian is?

From Acts 11:26-27, the disciples in Antioch, presumably of Jesus, who received the prophets from Jerusalem.

[Vance]

Zakuska, on 31 July 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I would contend that:

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

This defines a Christian as a "diciple" of Christ.  What is the definition of Disciple?

Websters:

dis·ci·ple

Definition of DISCIPLE



1
: one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as
a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts
b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual

2
capitalized: a member of the Disciples of Christ founded in the United States in 1809 that holds the Bible alone to be the rule of faith and practice, usually baptizes by immersion, and has a congregational polity
— dis·ci·ple·ship

\-ˌship\noun

Mormons definately are "convinced adherents".

And just for fun I like to go to the 1828 Webster's which has the definition as,

Quote

DISCIPLE, n. [L., to learn.]   
1. A learner; a scholar; one who receives or professes to receive instruction from another; as the disciples of Plato.   

2. A follower; an adherent to the doctrines of another. Hence the constant attendants of Christ were called his disciples; and hence all Christians are called his disciples, as they profess to learn and receive his doctrines and precepts.

DISCIPLE, v.t.
1. To teach; to train, or bring up.

2. To make disciples of; to convert to doctrines or principles. This authority he employed in sending missionaries to disciple all nations.   

3. To punish; to discipline. [Not in use.]

Edited by Vance, 31 July 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[bluebell]

So, so far it seems that the NT defines a christan as a follower of Christ.  Anything else?

[calmoriah]

Quote

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

http://www.lds.org/s.../8.31?lang=eng#

[calmoriah]

Quote

20 ¶And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessedbe ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessedare ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 ¶But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and tothe evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

http://www.lds.org/s....20?lang=eng#19

[bluebell]

calmoriah, on 31 July 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

http://www.lds.org/s.../8.31?lang=eng#

So, if you follow the commandments of Christ, then you are a diciple, and if you are a disciple, then you are a Christian, per the NT.

Anyone want to argue against this?

[calmoriah]

Quote

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

http://www.lds.org/s....35?lang=eng#34

[CV75]

bluebell, on 31 July 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

So, so far it seems that the NT defines a christan as a follower of Christ.  Anything else?

Something that Agrippa was almost persuaded to be in response to Paul's testimony (Acts 26:28).

[calmoriah]

Quote

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name’s sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

http://www.lds.org/s...15.8?lang=eng#7

Edited by calmoriah, 31 July 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[CV75]

bluebell, on 31 July 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

So, if you follow the commandments of Christ, then you are a diciple, and if you are a disciple, then you are a Christian, per the NT.

Anyone want to argue against this?

I think most simplistically, it is a follower of Christ who receives the prophets, no matter how badly or incorrectly he keeps His teachings.

You might even be able to keep receiving the prophets out of it.

Edited by CV75, 31 July 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

25 ¶And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

http://www.lds.org/s....27?lang=eng#26

[Zakuska]

Does "beleiving" something wrong about Jesus or his Gospel or missing certian observances etc. disqualify one from being a Christian™ as Evangelicals feel Mormons do?  (eg. Another Gospel)

Not according to Paul.

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Yet Evangelicals judge Mormons all the time for this very thing.

I with Paul ask EVs, "Who are Evangelicals to judge another mans servant, and decide who is and isn't a servant of Christ?

Edited by Zakuska, 31 July 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[bluebell]

CV75, on 31 July 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think most simplistically, it is a follower of Christ who receives the prophets, no matter how badly or incorrectly he keeps His teachings.

So you believe that the NT supports the idea that you can be a Christian, without obeying His commandments (or wanting to-since no one can obey them perfectly)?

[calmoriah]

Quote

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

http://www.lds.org/s....49?lang=eng#48

[Anijen]

From a secular yet still contemporaneous view we have this;

Quote

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

The Works of Josephus 18.3.3
From this secular view all those that followed him (tribe) were named Christian from Him. So no doctrine of trinity or any other doctrine need be accepted to be called a Christian, all the requirement was to be a follower of him, i.e. a disciple.

Edited by Anijen, 31 July 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Cæsar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judæa:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

http://www.lds.org/s....29?lang=eng#28

Edited by calmoriah, 31 July 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

http://www.lds.org/s....52?lang=eng#51

Quote

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

http://www.lds.org/s....11?lang=eng#10

Quote

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

http://www.lds.org/s....22?lang=eng#21

Quote

37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

http://www.lds.org/s....37?lang=eng#36

Quote

36 ¶Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

http://www.lds.org/s....36?lang=eng#35

Edited by calmoriah, 31 July 2012 - 11:39 AM.