174 replies to this topic

[Bernard Gui]

This is not a thread about gays and the LDS Church. Please stay out if you feel the
need to discuss that issue.

The Episcopalian Church is suffering grave divisions brought about by liberalizing
their theology, ie., redefining the nature of God and man, denying Lordship of Jesus,
advocating SS marriage even for ministers, and  ordaining homosexual ministers.
Whole congregations are seceding, finances dwindle, property lawsuits abound,
and membership is falling rapidly.

http://www.theblaze....-near-collapse/

Question:

Is this the inevitable fate of all orthodox religions during this time of social upheaval?
Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 15 July 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[CV75]

Bernard Gui, on 15 July 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Whole congregations are seceding, finances dwindle, property lawsuits abound,
and membership is falling rapidly.
***
Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

This is interesting concept, that an entire unit separate itself from the Church and go off on its own (regardless of the flashpoint). I suppose it could happen, but I don't see it happening on a common, church-wide scale, especially where finances are required to replicate anything the LDS Church currently provides its members. I also don't think individual Church units have a sufficiently charasmatic leader able to lead an entire congregation out of the Church on the basis of a point of doctrine. Splinter groups can continue to spring up to create new and separate/apostate congregations, and Mormon-dependent philosophies can become popular within Church units, but not on a congregational secession basis.

[Libs]

I would want to look really hard at cause and effect.  Most U.S. Churches have dwindled in membership, including conservative churches, over the past 20-30 years or so.  A lot of people feel they can no longer relate to the more conservative churches.  These churches are not keeping up with cultural changes and seem archaic to many people, especially the young.

Whether or not this could happen to the LDS Church, I have no idea.  I suppose the "top down" structure of the church might prevent that.

[Pa Pa]

CV75, on 15 July 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

This is interesting concept, that an entire unit separate itself from the Church and go off on its own (regardless of the flashpoint). I suppose it could happen, but I don't see it happening on a common, church-wide scale, especially where finances are required to replicate anything the LDS Church currently provides its members. I also don't think individual Church units have a sufficiently charasmatic leader able to lead an entire congregation out of the Church on the basis of a point of doctrine. Splinter groups can continue to spring up to create new and separate/apostate congregations, and Mormon-dependent philosophies can become popular within Church units, but not on a congregational secession basis.

There some who could, but thankfully we have Priesthood sturcture to keep that in check.

[Bernard Gui]

Pa Pa, on 15 July 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

There some who could, but thankfully we have Priesthood sturcture to keep that in check.

How would that work as the Church comes under increasing pressure to abandon traditional standards
from within?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Libs, on 15 July 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

I would want to look really hard at cause and effect.  Most U.S. Churches have dwindled in membership, including conservative churches, over the past 20-30 years or so.  A lot of people feel they can no longer relate to the more conservative churches.  These churches are not keeping up with cultural changes and seem archaic to many people, especially the young.

Whether or not this could happen to the LDS Church, I have no idea.  I suppose the "top down" structure of the church might prevent that.

Much of the change in the Episcopalian Church is being imposed from the top down.  
It's loss of membership is dramatic.

[CASteinman]

I know a fellow in the Episcopalian Church who is part of a group attempting to break away.  They are in Arizona and fed up with the central US Church and will have nothing to do with them.

This could happen in the LDS Church --- there could be whole units that go apostate.  

However, as long as there is a First Presidency and Quorum of 12 Apostles we will not, as a whole Church, go astray like that.

[bu11fr0g]

The church has even in the modern era excommunicated entire stakes. The clear plan for leadership succession prevents a lot of problems.

[CASteinman]

bu11fr0g, on 15 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

The church has even in the modern era excommunicated entire stakes. The clear plan for leadership succession prevents a lot of problems.

Surely not an entire Stake!

Edited by CASteinman, 15 July 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Kenngo1969]

bu11fr0g, on 15 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

The church has even in the modern era excommunicated entire stakes. The clear plan for leadership succession prevents a lot of problems.

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Sure not an entire Stake!

Sounds like a CFR to me!

[cinepro]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Surely not an entire Stake!

The "Stake Excommunication" is one of the lesser known procedures in the handbook.  

Usually, the members don't have much warning.  When tithing receipts and seminary attendance dip below a certain level, an apostle will visit for Stake Conference and conclude his remarks by saying "Oh, and by the way, you're all excommunicated."

Edited by cinepro, 15 July 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Bernard Gui]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

I know a fellow in the Episcopalian Church who is part of a group attempting to break away.  They are in Arizona and fed up with the central US Church and will have nothing to do with them.

This could happen in the LDS Church --- there could be whole units that go apostate.  

However, as long as there is a First Presidency and Quorum of 12 Apostles we will not, as a whole Church, go astray like that.

What kind of authority does the presiding bishop have? Can she unilaterally change doctrine? What leadership
supports her?

Bernard

[SeekerB]

Apostacy from the true church has happened several times before.  There won't be one again, though.  The Lord has promised that.  

[CASteinman]

Bernard Gui, on 15 July 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

What kind of authority does the presiding bishop have? Can she unilaterally change doctrine? What leadership
supports her?

I have no idea about this sort of thing.  I just know my friend and his co-religionists were really upset with the way things were at Headquarters.

[blackstrap]

I can see a stake president/counselors being exed but the whole 3000+ members ??? I hereby call a CFR to this.

Edited by blackstrap, 15 July 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Bernard Gui]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I have no idea about this sort of thing.  I just know my friend and his co-religionists were really upset with the way things were at Headquarters.

As per the article in the op. it seems the PB has had extraordinary responsibility  for change and the resultant schism.

Bernard

[Duncan]

I know a branch here in Canada that got cleaned out and stripped to the bone and it resulted in exes, disfellowshipments and really the only people who could take the sacrament were kids and the missionaries. One of the elders who was serving there then told his Mom what was going on and she wrote the Mission President who then got involved and then the stake president got invovled and he had one of his counselors had to conduct church for up to a year (from what I heard) until they could get sufficient leadership. This happened in the mid 90's. The BP there at around the year 2003ish had only been a member five years and was still dealing with all this stuff that happened some years before.

I just checked the church website and that unit is now a ward so hopefully things are back on track!

Edited by Duncan, 15 July 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Bernard Gui]

Is this the fate of churches that cling to orthodoxy?

Bernard

[Glenn101]

Bernard Gui, on 15 July 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Is this the fate of churches that cling to orthodoxy?

Bernard

I imagine that there will be many apostatizing from the church. It is already happening. There are those who do not like church policies on this or that point or they do not like church history and vote with their feet (and sometimes rhetoric) because of it. I would not even be surprised to see church membership begin to fall, rather than increase, in the face of continued social shifts that are in conflict with church doctrines. So, yes, church membership may flounder, but I do not believe that the church itself will apostatize. I don't think that the church authorities will all be killed off, leaving us with that leadership vacuum that happened of old.

But what do I know? I'm not a prophet (INAP).

Glenn

[CASteinman]

Glenn101, on 15 July 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I imagine that there will be many apostatizing from the church. It is already happening. There are those who do not like church policies on this or that point or they do not like church history and vote with their feet

When I was young and first joined the Church --I was told that the Church would experience growth but then there would come a sifting time.   I had no idea then how big the Church would be -- the growth is astonishing.

I also had no idea how bad the apostasy inside the Church might grow.  It is presently a minor matter, but it too is growing.  I believe that we shall yet see much of the apostasy now hidden emerge into the open -- emboldened by a world that favors the destruction of the Kingdom of God.