90 replies to this topic

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

For an example of my point, during a Gospel Doctrine lesson the teacher quoted something from the Qur'an, which seemed to put a few of the members of the class on edge because of the source rather than what the actual quote said.

Sounds to me like the Teacher made a mistake.  We have lesson materials and the Qur'an is not one of them.  We are supposed to use the materials provided and not our own stuff.

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

My point is that the "and living" part puts the quote in context better, and without it, others can get the wrong idea about the Church and what we really believe.

What exactly is the important difference in your mind?

We are the only true Church.  We are the only living Church.  We are the only True and living Church.

[CASteinman]

Kevin Christensen, on 15 July 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

the word "only" is modified by "with which I the Lord am well pleased."  

As before, you are misreading this.  Your view is not supported by rules or grammar.  You have to jump way far into the sentence to derive that modification -- and that is just not right.

Moveover, there are no other "True and Living" Churches with which the Lord is NOT well pleased.  The idea is preposterous.

Edited by CASteinman, 15 July 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Bernard Gui]

Tacenda, on 15 July 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

The Catholic church say they have the Priesthood and are the true church. So who would like to tell why we're truer than them? Oh, I forgot, they also believe the Pope speaks with God.  What do we have that they don't?

Are you familiar with the doctrine of Priesthood keys?
That's what LDS Church has that no other church has.
This is what makes the Church true and living.

http://www.lds.org/g...eature?lang=eng


Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 15 July 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[CASteinman]

There is no other Church that is True.
There is no other Church that is Living.

There may indeed be other Churches with which the Lord is "well pleased" but we do not know about them.
It is preposterous to presume that there are other "True and Living" Churches with which the Lord is not well pleased.

We know, however that we are the ONLY TRUE and LIVING Church with which the Lord is Well Pleased.  

Attempts to parse out the fact that we are the only authorized Church on the face of the earth produce errors in doctrine.

[HairBear]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Sounds to me like the Teacher made a mistake.  We have lesson materials and the Qur'an is not one of them.  We are supposed to use the materials provided and not our own stuff.

It wasn't as if he had brought a Qur'an into the classroom, he just quoted something that he had read in it that supported the principle he as teaching from the lesson.

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

It wasn't as if he had brought a Qur'an into the classroom, he just quoted something that he had read in it that supported the principle he as teaching from the lesson.

I suppose, if it was a lack of preparation and a spontaneous quote -- that is the sort of thing anyone might do.  I have, I am sure, done it countless times -- hopefully as I have matured not as much and more by accident.

  But if it were a prepared part of the lesson, that's sort of a bad idea.

[HairBear]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

What exactly is the important difference in your mind?

We are the only true Church.  We are the only living Church.  We are the only True and living Church.

As I have heard from critics, to say we are the only true Church implies that all the other churches are untrue (i.e. totally false). I'm not saying that that is what is meant by the verse, or that we believe that everything in all other religions is false, just that some people think that by saying we are the only true church it means that we believe all other churches are totally false.

[HairBear]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I suppose, if it was a lack of preparation and a spontaneous quote -- that is the sort of thing anyone might do.  I have, I am sure, done it countless times -- hopefully as I have matured not as much and more by accident.

  But if it were a prepared part of the lesson, that's sort of a bad idea.

It was a spontaneous quote. My point was that the source made others feel uncomfortable, not actually what the quote said.

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

As I have heard from critics, to say we are the only true Church implies that all the other churches are untrue (i.e. totally false).

They are all untrue.   That is the message of the Restoration.  

But that is not the same thing as saying that everything that they teach is false.  And I have never heard any member of the Church make a statement to that effect.  I have lived and gone to Church in 4 different countries, multiple states of the USA, in several score different Wards and never heard that.

I don't think it is an area where we need to be concerned.  As a Church we have always said that we welcome truth from where ever it may come.

At the same time... none of the other Churches is true.

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

It was a spontaneous quote. My point was that the source made others feel uncomfortable, not actually what the quote said.

On a separate note... your teacher must be fairly well read to spontaneously quote the Quran.

[HairBear]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

On a separate note... your teacher must be fairly well read to spontaneously quote the Quran.

I know he's read it, (so have I), but I think that he can only quote a few short passages, the ones that have caught his attention, and this particular passage just came back to him while he was teaching the lesson. He's a close friend and we discuss quite a lot of Gospel themes.

[Pa Pa]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Sorry about your health.  Hope it is temporary.

We have talked about this before, and I am convinced that the scripture is almost never misunderstood.  

We are in THE ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

There is no other True and Living Church on the Face of the Whole Earth.

Coming from God this "sounds" harsh...coming from us; really harsh.

[Valentinus]

Garden Girl, on 15 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Proper priesthood authority... and revelation through modern day prophets holding that authority.
yes, I know they claim to have that authority... my testimony is in the restoration of priesthood authority through Joseph...
As for the scripture quoted, it does not say we have ALL and the ONLY truth, period... our leaders have never said that there isn't any truth in other churches.  Rather, they've spoken from the beginning about finding truth wherever it is, including in other faiths... and like quoted above, inviting others to bring their truth and let us add to that truth.

GG

So YOU say and so our CHURCH claims. But do you absolutely know without a doubt that what you say is true? Can you prove such through verifiable evidence and logical reasoning? Can you do so without circular argument by quoting latter-day scripture to support your argument?

Circular arguments would be such:
-quoting D&C
-quoting JS
-quoting other church leaders

I believe that God has called me to the LDS church because that is what HE wants for me. But I do not believe that God calls everyone to the same religious movement as myself.

[CASteinman]

Pa Pa, on 15 July 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Coming from God this "sounds" harsh...coming from us; really harsh.

Oh well.. darn our luck!  I guess we should just be ashamed and hide.

[Valentinus]

Pa Pa, on 15 July 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Coming from God this "sounds" harsh...coming from us; really harsh.

It is and it is. I agree with Kevin's interpretation moreso than the traditional interpretation.

[CASteinman]

Valentinus, on 15 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I believe that God has called me to the LDS church because that is what HE wants for me. But I do not believe that God calls everyone to the same religious movement as myself.

Generally speaking God calls everyone to Repent and Be Baptized by proper authority into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

However, if someone were to tell me that God revealed to them that they should not be LDS, I would accept that.   Having considered the matter at length, I do not believe it is proper for me to interject myself between God and another person, plus, I accept that it is possible there are some people God does not want in His Church.

[Valentinus]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Generally speaking God calls everyone to Repent and Be Baptized by proper authority into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Can you show evidence of this claim without circular argument?

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

However, if someone were to tell me that God revealed to them that they should not be LDS, I would accept that.   Having considered the matter at length, I do not believe it is proper for me to interject myself between God and another person, plus, I accept that it is possible there are some people God does not want in His Church.

How Calvinistic of you...I'm glad that God is not an elitist.

[blackstrap]

There are also other ,"other sheep" ,and assuming that they are still in a group and still on earth, some of them will still be following the Lord's commands even though they may not be part of the current LDS membership.

[blackstrap]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Generally speaking God calls everyone to Repent and Be Baptized by proper authority into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

However, if someone were to tell me that God revealed to them that they should not be LDS, I would accept that.   Having considered the matter at length, I do not believe it is proper for me to interject myself between God and another person, plus, I accept that it is possible there are some people God does not want in His Church.

There are 6.5 billion of God's children currently on this earth.Our Church has little to no influence on billions of them. IMHO God will choose and utilize people of all faithsand beliefs to further the plan of salvation. I would prefer to say "God does not require some people to be in His Church at this time."