90 replies to this topic

[HairBear]

Today I made it to Church, my health wasn't very good, but with support I managed to get there. During a sacrament talk the speaker repeated what I feel is the most misquoted scripture. It is this part of D&C 1:30 -

"... and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord,"

I've highlighted the part I mean, as the misquoted part. We hear all too often people say that "this is the only true Church on the face of the earth", or words to that effect, and this is not what the scripture says, or intends imo; and does not mean that the LDS Church is the only Church that contains truth, and the other churches don't contain any truth. I think that the "and living" part of this verse is very important, and puts the LDS Church in context when comparing religious doctrines with others. Saying that the LDS Church is the only church on the earth that is true AND living says something completely different than to just say that it is the "only true" church.

I'm sure I've heard GA's say that there is truth in other religions, even though those religions may not have the complete truth or there are parts that aren't true. Or something like that.

(I'm sure there are many on this board who can find quotes and references relating to this a lot easier than I can.)

My question is this, do you feel that this misquote is responsible for many people thinking that members of the LDS Church are arrogant, or/also that some of us have "tunnel vision" when it comes to truth, and dismiss it when we find it in a source outside Mormonism?

I have no real answers, I just wanted to throw the subject out there and see what others think.

Hair Bear

[CASteinman]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I've highlighted the part I mean, as the misquoted part. We hear all too often people say that "this is the only true Church on the face of the earth", or words to that effect, and this is not what the scripture says, or intends imo; and does not mean that the LDS Church is the only Church that contains truth, and the other churches don't contain any truth. I think that the "and living" part of this verse is very important, and puts the LDS Church in context when comparing religious doctrines with others. Saying that the LDS Church is the only church on the earth that is true AND living says something completely different than to just say that it is the "only true" church.

Sorry about your health.  Hope it is temporary.

We have talked about this before, and I am convinced that the scripture is almost never misunderstood.  

We are in THE ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

There is no other True and Living Church on the Face of the Whole Earth.



But, now, having said that, this is not the same thing as saying that there is no truth elsewhere.    And I have never ever understood it to mean that nor have I taken it that other LDS believe that.

In fact, when I was a brand new member, I recall one of the more conservative individuals in the Church (a man whose son I suspect now posts here from time to time) telling me that there could well come a time when you would not be able to tell the True and Living Church from a false Church -- because of adoption of Truth from the Gospel.

Clearly, under that paradigm, even fully and rigorously apostate Churches can have much truth and the appearance of Godliness.

I do not think that this statement from God has been misinterpreted by most LDS.  Certainly not within my hearing during 35 years of being a member.

[Glenn101]

I'm not sure what your point is. People regularly misquote the scriptures. But saying that the LDS Church is the only true church is not an error. It may need context. You gave a bit of that context in that all churches contain some truth. The philosophies of Buddha and Confucius  also contain some truths. Yet they do not contain the fulness of the gospel needed for salvation and exaltation.

I agree that the "and living" part of that scripture is very important. All the truth in the world would avail us nothing if there were no means of employing those truths to our betterment. That is why the priesthood and the leadership of Jesus Christ is vitally important.

Glenn

[HairBear]

CASteinman, on 15 July 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Sorry about your health.  Hope it is temporary.

We have talked about this before, and I am convinced that the scripture is almost never misunderstood.  

We are in THE ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

There is no other True and Living Church on the Face of the Whole Earth.



But, now, having said that, this is not the same thing as saying that there is no truth elsewhere. And I have never ever understood it to mean that nor have I taken it that other LDS believe that.

In fact, when I was a brand new member, I recall one of the more conservative individuals in the Church (a man whose son I suspect now posts here from time to time) telling me that there could well come a time when you would not be able to tell the True and Living Church from a false Church -- because of adoption of Truth from the Gospel.

Clearly, under that paradigm, even fully and rigorously apostate Churches can have much truth and the appearance of Godliness.

I do not think that this statement from God has been misinterpreted by most LDS.  Certainly not within my hearing during 35 years of being a member.

I agree that there is no other true and living church on the face of the earth, but most of the time people miss out the "and living" part when saying the phrase.

For an example of my point, during a Gospel Doctrine lesson the teacher quoted something from the Qur'an, which seemed to put a few of the members of the class on edge because of the source rather than what the actual quote said. (I'm from the UK, so a few disapproving mumbles is the most you'll get out of us when we're uncomfortable, lol)

Hair Bear

[HairBear]

Glenn101, on 15 July 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'm not sure what your point is. People regularly misquote the scriptures. But saying that the LDS Church is the only true church is not an error. It may need context. You gave a bit of that context in that all churches contain some truth. The philosophies of Buddha and Confucius  also contain some truths. Yet they do not contain the fulness of the gospel needed for salvation and exaltation.

I agree that the "and living" part of that scripture is very important. All the truth in the world would avail us nothing if there were no means of employing those truths to our betterment. That is why the priesthood and the leadership of Jesus Christ is vitally important.

Glenn

My point is that the "and living" part puts the quote in context better, and without it, others can get the wrong idea about the Church and what we really believe.

[Libs]

One of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had was the current Bishop's 1st Counselor.  He is a lawyer and a very wise man.  On the issue of the One True Church, his interpretation was very similar to what I have heard Evangelicals say about it, that the One True Church encompasses ALL who are true disciples of Christ.  That means some LDS are not in the One True Church and that many outside of the LDS Church would be included in the One True Church.  In other words, you will find these "true diciples" in many denominations, not just the LDS Church.

I don't know if his interpretation was "popular" (although, I never saw anyone contradict him, in class), but I like that interpretation and I believe it is closer to the truth.

Edited by Libs, 15 July 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[CV75]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

My point is that the "and living" part puts the quote in context better, and without it, others can get the wrong idea about the Church and what we really believe.

I think the "living" part points to the resurrection (of the dead Church (so to speak), or the Restoration after the Apostasy, and is an important point to remember and share.

[Glenn101]

Libs, on 15 July 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

One of the best Gospel Doctrine teachers I ever had was the current Bishop's 1st Counselor.  He is a lawyer and a very wise man.  On the issue of the One True Church, his interpretation was very similar to what I have heard Evangelicals say about it, that the One True Church encompasses ALL who are true disciples of Christ.  That means some LDS are not in the One True Church and that many outside of the LDS Church would be included in the One True Church.  In other words, you will find these "true diciples" in many denominations, not just the LDS Church.

I don't know if his interpretation was "popular" (although, I never saw anyone contradict him, in class), but I like that interpretation and I believe it is closer to the truth.

I don't believe that I have heard that particular interpretation before. It does not strike a chord with me. It does not appear to be based upon any other scriptures that I remember reading. Maybe ou could point us to some that underscores that point?

Thanks,
Glenn

[HairBear]

CV75, on 15 July 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I think the "living" part points to the resurrection (of the dead Church (so to speak), or the Restoration after the Apostasy, and is an important point to remember and share.

To my understanding, the "living" part points to the fact that we have living prophets, and we are ready to accept more revelation when God reveals it, rather than just relying on the words of "dead" prophets and going no further.

[Libs]

Glenn101, on 15 July 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I don't believe that I have heard that particular interpretation before. It does not strike a chord with me. It does not appear to be based upon any other scriptures that I remember reading. Maybe ou could point us to some that underscores that point?

Thanks,
Glenn

In retrospect, I think he may have been discussing Christ's Church vs the Great and Abominable Church.  I don't remember specific verses, but we were studying the New Testament that year.

[tyler90az]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

"... and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord,"

Just reading the verse, I don't think everyones interpretation is right. If it said, the only true church, then they would be right. But since it says the only true and living church, it means there are other true churches.

True means has truth.

Living means able to receive revelation.

That then means there are other true churches. The thing is they don't have the all the truth. That is why George Albert Smith used to say, "keep the truth you have and we will add unto it."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church that has all the truths and will continue to receive more truth.

[blackstrap]

We also forget to mention the part " with which I the Lord am well pleased "  (speaking collectively)

I also hesitate to say that the Church has all truth.It is willing and desires to accept all truth from the past,present and future,but that it currently contains all truth is a stretch.Perhaps it is a matter of definition or semantics.

[cesc101]

Personally, I feel "living" in that revelation referred to the fact that Revelations was the founding & sustaining principle, and the Lord was well pleased to speak - by Revelation if you may - to the members, thus bringing the Truth out of obscurity.
just my perception...!

[CV75]

HairBear, on 15 July 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

To my understanding, the "living" part points to the fact that we have living prophets, and we are ready to accept more revelation when God reveals it, rather than just relying on the words of "dead" prophets and going no further.

Yes, I agree; that is part and parcel of the Restored Gospel.

[Bernard Gui]

It all hinges on the doctrine of Priesthood keys.

Bernard

[CV75]

tyler90az, on 15 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

That then means there are other true churches. The thing is they don't have the all the truth. That is why George Albert Smith used to say, "keep the truth you have and we will add unto it."

What impresses me is the qualification, “upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased”, clarifying that He is “speaking unto the church collectively and not individually.”

[CV75]

Bernard Gui, on 15 July 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

It all hinges on the doctrine of Priesthood keys.

Bernard

I agree; church-wide revelation on "the face of the earth" can only come through living servants with the proper keys.

[Tacenda]

Bernard Gui, on 15 July 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

It all hinges on the doctrine of Priesthood keys.

Bernard

The Catholic church say they have the Priesthood and are the true church. So who would like to tell why we're truer than them? Oh, I forgot, they also believe the Pope speaks with God.  What do we have that they don't?

[Kevin Christensen]

I presented on this at Sunstone years ago, and periodically offer my reading here.

the word "only" is modified by "with which I the Lord am well pleased."  The distinction that makes for this church as the only well pleasing one is not exclusive truth ("I the Lord am willing make these things known unto all flesh", D&C 1:34), nor exclusive revelation (Besides revealing himself to Joseph Smith (D&C 1:17), he also gave commandments to unspecified "others that they should proclaim these things to the world" (D&C 1:18).   D&C 1 does not even suggest that we have all truth, since it promises "knowledge from time to time" (D&C 1:28), and it expressly says our leaders that "inasmuch as they erred it might be may known," and "inasmuch as they sinned they might repent."  

I looked all through the Bible at the uses of both "true" and "living" and the occasional paired use.  Things like true vine, living bread, true bread, truth and life, living waters, "true God, living God" "tree of life" "living way" and "living stones" etc.  In context these passages refer to revelation, priesthood, ordinances and covenants, and center on Temple.  What I found is that the context of the Biblical passages match the themes of D&C 1 verse for verse, point for point.  I think "true and living" functions as a merism that together express themes of D&C 1 as a coherent whole.

And it turns out that revelation (Including the Book of Mormon), and the priesthood, ordinances, and covenants and temple are exactly what in actual practice distinguishes the LDS faith from others, not in exclusive terms, but in relative well pleasing terms.  It is a far more tolerant and robust model than something like exclusive truth.

For the actual source of the common misreading, see stage 1 and 2 of the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Bethel Park, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen, 16 July 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Garden Girl]

Tacenda, on 15 July 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

The Catholic church say they have the Priesthood and are the true church. So who would like to tell why we're truer than them? Oh, I forgot, they also believe the Pope speaks with God.  What do we have that they don't?

Proper priesthood authority... and revelation through modern day prophets holding that authority.
yes, I know they claim to have that authority... my testimony is in the restoration of priesthood authority through Joseph...
As for the scripture quoted, it does not say we have ALL and the ONLY truth, period... our leaders have never said that there isn't any truth in other churches.  Rather, they've spoken from the beginning about finding truth wherever it is, including in other faiths... and like quoted above, inviting others to bring their truth and let us add to that truth.

GG

Edited by Garden Girl, 15 July 2012 - 06:29 PM.