35 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

One of the things That I have always been aware of were the multiple prophecies by Jospeh which were fulfilled.  I also was aware though of many prophesies which seem unfulfilled and so in an effort to get us discussing these and seeing if they have

a.) been fulfilled with explanation of how is needed to clarify
b.) Will be fulfilled at some later time
c.) was not an actual prophecy and is misrepresented by critics
d.) failed

Using Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia....of_Joseph_Smith  as our "un-biased" guide knowing there is no unbias lets see if we can eliminate some of these as problem issues

1.)  D&C 84 ¹¹⁴ Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.

2.)Enemies not destroyed - If the Saints were not successful in legal action against their enemies (in Missouri) God would avenge them and all their adversaries would be destroyed. History of Church, v1, p 455 1833 Dec 10

3.)Son David - Smith prophesies that his unborn child will be called David, and will be "church president and king over Israel". The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, D. Michael Quinn, p. 644 1844  Apr-May   -   Seems that while we can blame this on the use of agency of David, it appears that this was much outside his control


4.) Oliver Granger - "And again, I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord." D&C 117:12-15  -  Just wanted to mention this one so I might assist in keeping this one fulfilled...lol

Let me state I also am impressed going over the list at how many prophecies were undeniably fulfilled and which have valid explanations even though the critic say they were not.  I only listed here a few that I see a better way in which to understand the ones claimed to have failed and no good explanation was available according to my ignorance and opinion.

So what do you think?????

Edited by DBMormon, 13 July 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[DBMormon]

I left out a couple that mentioned generation because Jesus said a similar thing in Mathew 24 when asked when he would come again so I feel there is some other way to understand this then we currently see.

Mathew 24
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[selek1]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

So what do you think?????

I think you need to look these up at FAIR instead of expecting us to do your homework for you.

Here's an excellent place to begin:   http://en.fairmormon...alse_prophecies

Edited by selek1, 13 July 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[DBMormon]

Does FAIR have a monopoly on all available solutions to this issue?  Are their answers the guaranteed best?  Once FAIR has spoken the thinking has been done?

Please continue

PS...  Not each of the ones I mention are addressed by fair in that link

Edited by DBMormon, 13 July 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[selek1]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Does FAIR have a monopoly on all available solutions to this issue?  Are their answers the guaranteed best?

Neither- but they are (as a general rule) the best researched, best documented, and most coherent explanations available.

These are all qualities one would hope for if one is interested in getting answers rather than in generating controversy.

Quote

Once FAIR has spoken the thinking has been done?

Case in point.

Ironically, your refusal to even consider the articles mentioned indicates that you are NOT interested in what "thinking" has been done.

Why should we reinvent the wheel or line up and bark at your command when there's already a one-stop-shopping source that covers the best available data?

Quote

PS... all the ones I mention are not mentioned by FAIR

You are incorrect.

At least one of those (the 56 year deal) is explicitly covered on that page.  Saliently, the link I gave you is a merely the "root" directory.

Try following the links instead of waving your hands as a distraction.

I also have to challenge one of your basic assertions: I find it absolutely untenable that you wish to use that particular wikipedia link you as an "unbiased" source.

This is especially ironic when the first note on the page warns readers that the objectivity of the article is in dispute.

One would almost think you were trying to stack the deck instead of holding a genuine discussion.

Edited by selek1, 13 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[rodheadlee]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I left out a couple that mentioned generation because Jesus said a similar thing in Mathew 24 when asked when he would come again so I feel there is some other way to understand this then we currently see.

Mathew 24
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe this generation applies to the generation that see these things come to pass (parable of the fig tree) and not the generation he was speaking to. My personal belief is that it's the generation that saw the holocaust and the first use of the atomic bomb.

[thews]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

So what do you think?????

http://biblelight.ne...se-prophets.htm

Quote

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

http://en.wikipedia....of_Joseph_Smith

Quote

Wind up in 56 Years "[T]he coming of the Lord, which is nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." History of Church, v2, p 182 1835 Feb 14

Critics claim this prophecy was not fulfilled.^[11] Apologists claim that since Smith did not preface this statement with the typical prophetical "Thus sayeth the Lord", it is not a proper prophecy.

85 years old - "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, .. the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.... [T]he 14th chapter of Revelation... The hour of his judgement is come .... After ... 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890."

History of the Church, v5, p 336; D&C 130:14-17 1843 April 6
Joseph Smith himself was not sure if this revelation referred to the beginning of the millennium or if he would die and see "the Savior's face".^[18]

[calmoriah]

Off topic quick question, DB.  Your avatar has the title "Book of Mormon Answerman".  Were you that individual?  If so, what happened to your website?

[DBMormon]

I wish, he wouldn't struggle like I do at times.... I loved him when I joined the church and The site helped me in my first faith crisis more then I can say.  My first Email Address was BOManswerman@***.*** as a salute to his effort.....  he was   A  W   E   S   O   M   E !!!!

Edited by DBMormon, 13 July 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Ron Beron]

Firstly, a prophet isn't necessarily a person who divines the future, but rather sets right the path of the Lord.  As cited in the aforementioned FAIRMormon it states,

Quote

As far as external considerations were involved, therefore, there would appear to have been [in Old Testament times] virtually no means of differentiating the true from the false prophet....While the popular view current in the seventh century B.C. distinguished a true prophet from a false one on the basis of whether their predictions were fulfilled or not, this attitude merely constituted an inversion of the situation as it ultimately emerged, and not an absolute criterion of truth or falsity as such. As Albright has pointed out, the fulfilment of prophecies was only one important element in the validation of a genuine prophet, and in some instances was not even considered to be an essential ingredient, as illustrated by the apparent failure of the utterances of Haggai [Haggai 2:21] against the Persian empire.  Shalom M. Paul, "Prophecy and Prophets" a supplemental essay in Etz Hayim, a Torah/Commentary published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1411

Why the concern?  OT prophets were occasionally wrong.

[cinepro]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

So what do you think?????

I think Joseph Smith (and the other early Church members) really, really thought things were wrapping up within the next few years or decades, and that a lot of his pronouncements were more a reflection of this worldview than any specific direct "revelation".

I also suspect if someone were to have told them that the Church would be celebrating the 150th anniversary of the Pioneers in a millenium-free 1998, they would have been pretty surprised.

Edited by cinepro, 13 July 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[cdowis]

This is an oldie, but moldie.  

Are you aware that the Biblical prophets also had prophecies that were not fulfilled?  And Christ actually cited one of those "false" prophets.

You are obviously confusing prophets with  fortune tellers.  The Lord can and has changed His mind on occasion, and then revised those prophecies.  You might check out the book of Jonah as one example.  Many of these prophecies are conditional, even if not explicitly mentioned.  Some are misinterpreted or the fulfillment ignored, as you demonstrated in your post.

Anyway, best of luck to you.

Edited by cdowis, 13 July 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[treehugger]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

One of the things That I have always been aware of were the multiple prophecies by Jospeh which were fulfilled. ...
So what do you think?????

selek1, on 13 July 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I think you need to look these up at FAIR instead of expecting us to do your homework for you.

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Does FAIR have a monopoly on all available solutions to this issue?  Are their answers the guaranteed best?  Once FAIR has spoken the thinking has been done?
Please continue
PS...  Not each of the ones I mention are addressed by fair in that link

The things of Spiritual things of God can not be answered by reasoning of man.

"the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

[Benjamin McGuire]

Quote

I think Joseph Smith (and the other early Church members) really, really thought things were wrapping up within the next few years or decades, and that a lot of his pronouncements were more a reflection of this worldview than any specific direct "revelation".

I think is just a bit inaccurate. Many of the early members of the church didn't just believe things were wrapping up, they believed there was a check list of sorts that could be filled in to expedite the second coming. That is, that the second coming would occur when all of the requirements for it had been completed, and that the church through its restoration efforts and attempts to fulfill those prophecies could accelerate the second coming by completing that check list.


Ben M.

[DBMormon]

Quote

I also suspect if someone were to have told them that the Church would be celebrating the 150th anniversary of the Pioneers in a millenium-free 1998, they would have been pretty surprised.

"This church shall fill North and South America, it shall fill the world."

[CASteinman]

DBMormon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

1.)  D&C 84

2.)Enemies not destroyed - If the Saints were not successful in legal action against their enemies (in Missouri) God would avenge them and all their adversaries would be destroyed. History of Church, v1, p 455 1833 Dec 10

3.)Son David - Smith prophesies that his unborn child will be called David, and will be "church president and king over Israel".


4.) Oliver Granger - "And again, I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation,

#1.   How do we know that will not be fulfilled?
#2.   Similar to #1.  Looks more like a prayer and expression of faith than a foretelling of the future -- and if it is, it is about the Second Coming.  How do we know it will not be fulfilled.
#3.   What is the exact context and wording?  How reliable is the original source?  (It is in contradiction with other things said by Joseph Smith)
#4.  Not serious, right?

[Kevin Christensen]

Taking a larger view of Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets:

http://en.fairmormon..._False_Prophets

Kevin Christensen
Bethel Park, PA

[Thinking]

Ron Beron, on 13 July 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Why the concern?  OT prophets were occasionally wrong.

cdowis, on 13 July 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Are you aware that the Biblical prophets also had prophecies that were not fulfilled?  And Christ actually cited one of those "false" prophets.

You are obviously confusing prophets with  fortune tellers.  The Lord can and has changed His mind on occasion, and then revised those prophecies.  You might check out the book of Jonah as one example.  Many of these prophecies are conditional, even if not explicitly mentioned.  Some are misinterpreted or the fulfillment ignored, as you demonstrated in your post.

It it’s not a big deal when a prophecy doesn’t come true, why is it a big deal when one does?

[blackstrap]

Thinking, on 14 July 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

It it’s not a big deal when a prophecy doesn’t come true, why is it a big deal when one does?

A lot depends on whether or not you have a golf game scheduled.

[blackstrap]

Many if not most people are obsessed with knowing the future:sports events , politics,the stock market,the weather,etc. They seem to need some certainty in this uncertain and seemingly random world. As has been said,the true prophet testifies of Christ and His will .A prognosticator has other purposes. Let's see how good a "prophet " I am .

  Within 5 years the following will happen: 1. The Yankees will win the series
                                            2. Obama will not be president
                                            3. The price of Gold will reach $ 2000/oz
                                            4. There will be a massive tornado in Oklahoma
                                            5. Christ will not have returned