Apology

[Spammer]

I didn't know there was a "standard mormon prayer". How about praying as the Bible says, "Our father which art in heaven . . ."? Do I detect excuses in here somewhere?

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off. The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father". The way I always started mine off.

[KevinG]

The standard form is based on the Lord's prayer...

Address our Father in Heaven (Dear Father, Our Father, Our Kind Father, Our Father In Heaven hallowed be thy name...)

Thank Him for our blessings

Ask Him for what we need (blessings, forgiveness)

Close in the Name of our Savior Jesus Christ (who is our intercessor with God the Father)

When I first received a witness of the Holy Ghost the missionaries taught me something very important. The unwritten step is to listen for a response. We would not ask a question then hang up the phone. In prayer we need to give some time to receive a response by pondering and listening. If we don't receive an answer right away we continue to petition God and seek His will.

[Spammer]

Right. I pray the Our Father all the time. What I never say is "Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day..." Weird, I know.

[why me]

My Catholicism and my wife's Mormonism seem to be incompatible. In my home it has to be one or the other, and my wife insists that anything Catholic stay hidden away. She gets to live her faith openly, I have to sneak around and pretend. I'm resentful.

It doesn't need to be this way at all. Once you are honest with your wife all may be well. Eventually she will find out. My children know that I attend catholic mass too. I also help out with the missionaries of charity at times. There are no problems. The point is: don't speak negatively of the lds church, be a good person, show how going to mass helps you go through life, attend sacrament meetings at times, and be supportive of your wife's mormonism. Since being catholic is basically attending mass on saturday or sunday, it should be no problem to live it openly. And it may even be possible to have a very tasteful statue of the virgin mary in your home. Also, you can invite your wife to a catholic flea market to raise money of the church. I wish you luck.

[why me]

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off. The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father". The way I always started mine off.

There is nothing wrong with this in the catholic faith either. I hear priests begin their prayers at times with Father, be with us this day....

It gives the prayer a personal touch. Catholics just don't pray by saying the our father. They also use more personal expressions for the beginning their prayers.

[Spammer]

There is nothing wrong with this in the catholic faith either. I hear priests begin their prayers at times with Father, be with us this day....

It gives the prayer a personal touch. Catholics just don't pray by saying the our father. They also use more personal expressions for the beginning their prayers.

Yes, I agree. All I'm saying is I spent a lifetime with the personal kind of expression and it got me nowhere. It really does feel like praying to Zeus when I pray that way. The centuries-old rote prayers are much easier to pray. They're new to me. Like I said, weird. Just a hunch, but I tried so very hard with tears for years to gain a testimony and failed, that maybe anything remotely resembling an LDS approach to spirituality was burned out of me. Scorched earth.

[CASteinman]

Naturally, since I no longer believe in Joseph Smith's revelations, I no longer believe that I made any promises to God. Promises to my wife are a different matter. But I think the same applies.

That is why I said that to be true to your new self you must betray your old self and promises made. Which is a difficult position to be in. In addition, regardless of what you now believe, the promises made in the Temple were serious with eternal implications. Your wife is having to deal with the consequences of a choice she is not in control of but which she may feel affects her profoundly.

In other words, she may be in every bit as much a box as you feel yourself to be in.

Think of a Catholic man who marries his Catholic wife and promies her and God at home after the wedding that he will always be faithful to her and to the Church. Then one day the missionaries knock on his door and he decides to be baptized into the LDS church. Did he betray his wife? Did he betray God? Both? Maybe he betrayed her, but not God, not if the LDS church is true. I view it exactly the same way, but in reverse.

If the Roman Catholic Church were the true Church, then maybe he betrayed God. Whether he betrayed his wife or not is a more individual issue and would depend upon how she perceived the marriage and how he changed following the conversion.

I hope I explained in my previous post why I like the bells and whistles of Catholicism.

This post was much better at that explanation.

However, I do not consider myself entitled to nor demanding of an explanation. I was not looking for one -- and I probably should have made that clear. I was merely expressing my confusion at it -- I don't understand it. Which is something inside me, not so much inside you. But, that you are attracted to all of that from the Catholic Church and yet you do not believe in God -- well that is actually sort of disturbing.

What you call idolatry, I call the communion of saints. Just like you can ask Thomas S. Monson to say a prayer for you if you ever meet him, in the communion of saints you can do the same even if he's dead.

Honestly, I would not only never ask him to say a prayer for me, it would never enter my mind to do so. Moreover, except in some very intimate situations, I would be dismayed if anyone that I knew asked that and would be embarrassed to be around if I saw it happen. It is so presumptuous in so many ways. I could not be comfortable with that.

I would consider it much worse than when Catholics pray to Saints.

As I have said, if I were not Mormon I would be Catholic.

[Spammer]

CAsteinman,

If I didn't believe in God, I would still be an atheist. I struggle with my faith, but I wouldn't say I don't believe in God. What I am is a believer with periodic bouts of doubt that he exists. That might be too fine a disinction for you, but I know I'm not the only one in that situation. I can consider myself to be a believer if, despite a lack of experiential evidence, I choose to believe based on compelling philosophical grounds. I'm much like the man who told Jesus "Lord I believe. Help thou my unbelief!" In my reading, that expression of desperate, hopeful faith still led to Christ's blessing. I hope that clarifies.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Spammer

[CASteinman]

When I first received a witness of the Holy Ghost the missionaries taught me something very important. The unwritten step is to listen for a response. We would not ask a question then hang up the phone. In prayer we need to give some time to receive a response by pondering and listening. If we don't receive an answer right away we continue to petition God and seek His will.

For some people this advise is all that is needed. But it may not make sense or even come across as trite for other people where there are communication problems. I can think of two examples:

1. People for whom the "Heavens are as Brass" due to some iniquity

2. People who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder but in the still small voice -- who may not recognize the still small voice when it speaks.

Especially in the latter case, these people are not bad or evil. But they have not been taught sufficiently and do not have experience with answers. Saying "Wait and Listen" is pretty much like an instruction in English to a person who only knows Chinese. It makes no sense and does not match to something that they relate to.

Learning the Spirit and learning to wait not just a few moments but possibly much longer periods of times are important things and the first item may even take some one on one coaching in person.

[CASteinman]

If I didn't believe in God, I would still be an atheist. I struggle with my faith, but I wouldn't say I don't believe in God. ... I choose to believe based on compelling philosophical grounds. I'm much like the man who told Jesus "Lord I believe. Help thou my unbelief!" In my reading, that expression of desperate, hopeful faith still led to Christ's blessing. I hope that clarifies.

Yes it does clarify. I did not understand you exactly right. I was under the impression that you were more of an atheist seeking to believe. Which I now understand is incorrect.

[zerinus]

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off. The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father". The way I always started mine off.

So tell me something, how would you Like to start your prayers?

[zerinus]

Right. I pray the Our Father all the time. What I never say is "Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day..." Weird, I know.

The answer then is to pray the way you want to pray, and let your wife pray the way she wants to pray.

[Spammer]

The answer then is to pray the way you want to pray, and let your wife pray the way she wants to pray.

I agree. It would just be nice if I could pray the way I'm comfortable praying in front of the kids. You know, just be myself without causing any worry or stress..

[zerinus]

I agree. It would just be nice if I could pray the way I'm comfortable praying in front of the kids. You know, just be myself without causing any worry or stress..

I thought we were talking about an exceptional period of sincere fasting and prayer together with your wife to obtain special help from the Lord to solve your problems.

[rpn]

If your wife doesn't know about faceseast.org, then you might suggest she go there for support. But please resist the urge to go there to see what she is thinking or saying.

If she and you had children planning to raise them LDS, then I get why they are being raised lds.

But I'm thinking she doesn't understand agency very well. You should no more have to sneak around to go to your church service as she does to hers. I am sorry for this. She's probably pretending herself. She might get a whole lot of relief at faceseast talking with others in her situation.

ETA. It is alright to correct the teacher's misunderstanding of catholicism, if you find it there. And it is important to teach your sons that they should never make fun of another's faith. Your wife should support you on that as there have been conference talks on tolerance and acceptance before.

(And please tell your wife that her sons will find out about this at some point and the hiding of your disbelief is likely to do as much damage or more than them now knowing that you don't believe and their mother does.

Edited July 11, 2012 by rpn

[Calm]

"I now understand that the magnificent feeling of closeness to God comes not from being inside the edifice, but that the edifice provides me a particular space to fully engage that magnificent closeness to God."

Yes, this. I was thinking of how to respond to what CAsteinman wrote and this does the job nicely. As I've said, I'm only attracted to Catholicism since it afforded me some reasons to suspect that God might be there after all. The fact that I find Catholic churches beautiful doesn't drive my faith, weak that it is. It's only that in those spaces it's easier for me to hope that one day within such a sacred space, filled as they are with symbolic reminders of the other world, I really will have an encounter with the spirit of God. Catholic and Orthodox churches 'feel' holy to me in a way the ward house and the temple never did. I can't explain it; that's just the way it is. In fact, most Protestant churches and the ward house feel exactly like a country club to me. I don't 'feel' like holiness happens there at all. Just social gatherings.

Also, my wife doesn't feel our eternal family is shattered. She has told me that she doesn't really think that God will split us up in the next world, no matter what the church might teach on the matter. So long as I'm a good person, we'll still be married and a family.

If you are a good person whose motivation is to find truth and God, you will find him, imo, even if not in this life, than the next. Of course, because of my personal beliefs, I believe that when you do, you will find that while much of your Catholic belief is truth, the LDS faith will be closer to the ultimate truth both faiths are seeking to emulate.

Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.

One day I want to attend mass in an ancient cathedral, but have to do so secretly. That makes me sad thinking about it.

This could give a sense of connection with the early Christians who often had to worship in secret.

[Calm]

Why not agree to use the Lord's Prayer to 'introduce' your prayers together?

[Calm]

For some people this advise is all that is needed. But it may not make sense or even come across as trite for other people where there are communication problems. I can think of two examples:

1. People for whom the "Heavens are as Brass" due to some iniquity

2. People who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder but in the still small voice -- who may not recognize the still small voice when it speaks.

3. People for whom the "heaven are as brass" due to some disorder of which it is not their fault. Our physical natures can overwhelm our spiritual natures, unfortunately, and that means if there is something off physically, the spiritual lines may be blocked at our end.

[CASteinman]

3. People for whom the "heaven are as brass" due to some disorder of which it is not their fault. Our physical natures can overwhelm our spiritual natures, unfortunately, and that means if there is something off physically, the spiritual lines may be blocked at our end.

Heavens are brass because of iniquity. At least per the scriptures.

When it is due to some disorder that is not our fault, that is really more like the second example I gave -- people who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder, but in the still small voice. They may even intellectually know this is what they are listening for and yet not recognize it.

I consider that a defect that is not exactly our fault.

Edited July 12, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.

It seems that she actually feels the errors in this life will transcend into the next. Thus she is concerned and nervous.

She may be right. It is a very serious thing to abandon the Gospel and Temple Covenants. But God alone is Judge and we do not have either authority or wisdom to know what He will decide on such things. However, we do know what He has warned. The term used was "buffetings of satan" -- which at least to me, suggests trouble in this life but potentially honor and glory in the future. I am grateful for the Mercy and Justice of God.

[Calm]

If her primary fear is for her children and not for her husband, for him she seems to feel positive, then it seems to me most likely that she is concerned for her children's lives during mortality, that they may end up not having as good of lives if they leave the Church and she doesn't want to see them suffer because of it. It may also be fear about their eternal status, but that seems contradictory to her conclusions about her husband's ultimate state...not that all of our beliefs have to be coherent and logical.

This is, of course, something spammer can talk to her about. Perhaps he can draw an analogy about how hard it must be for the Father to watch us take missteps and screw up our lives when he could step in and make it all a paradise for us, but he values even more us as individuals and is willing to suffer alongside us instead of overprotecting us from ourselves.

Edited July 12, 2012 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

First, I wish to express how deeply it saddens my heart to hear of you being under such spiritually stressful circumstances. It is my sincerest prayer that you find peace and comfort.

I want to address your inability to feel the Spirit. I have many friends who are former members of different churches who are now atheists/humanists. I don't wish to sound as though I am encouraging the same path but if that is where you believe you are being drawn then perhaps it is where you are to be or that there is something you need to learn. This perspective I present is not popular but all options must be considered. This is YOUR journey after all and not your family's or anyone else's.

If there are moments where you do feel the Spirit or feel prompted to pursue some spiritual avenue then think it over, talk to God, etc. If you receive an answer then you need to answer God's call. Even if it isn't to the LDS faith.

I don't know that you have a substance abuse problem. It is not my place to speculate on such so I won't further discuss it.

I do recommend full honesty with your wife and children. Keeping quiet about your spiritual issues is moreso problematic as it does nothing to resolve any existing problems.

I wish there were more I could say. You and your family will be in my prayers.

Grace and peace.

[Spammer]

I thought we were talking about an exceptional period of sincere fasting and prayer together with your wife to obtain special help from the Lord to solve your problems.

Oh, sorry. I'm with you now. My wife and I don't pray together and haven't for years. I'll broach the subject of fasting and prayer with her. I think she'll be ok with hearing me pray like a Catholic. Fasting might be an issue. She never fasts. She's not very devout. So long as the kids hear blessings on the food, have a prayer with mom at night, and have a good experience at church, then all will be right with the world.

[Spammer]

If you are a good person whose motivation is to find truth and God, you will find him, imo, even if not in this life, than the next. Of course, because of my personal beliefs, I believe that when you do, you will find that while much of your Catholic belief is truth, the LDS faith will be closer to the ultimate truth both faiths are seeking to emulate.

After my atheist period, I wouldn't have looked into the ancient church if I thought there was good reason to think a wholesale reformation or complete restoration was warranted. Naturally, I think it's the orthodox Christian tradition that is closer to the ultimate truth. But there's no proof one way or the other. Just varying interpretations of the weight of the evidence.

Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.

My wife thinks that when we get to heaven that we'll all be very surprised. She thinks anyone who's a good person will be there, no matter what ordinances in life were received or what their faith was in life.

[Spammer]

It seems that she actually feels the errors in this life will transcend into the next. Thus she is concerned and nervous.

She may be right. It is a very serious thing to abandon the Gospel and Temple Covenants. But God alone is Judge and we do not have either authority or wisdom to know what He will decide on such things. However, we do know what He has warned. The term used was "buffetings of satan" -- which at least to me, suggests trouble in this life but potentially honor and glory in the future. I am grateful for the Mercy and Justice of God.

It really is as simple as fears for our kids in this life. She doesn't want them to grow up to be bad people and she sees the church as the best vehicle to teach them the values they need in life. I don't disagree, though I don't think the LDS church monopolizes those values or means of communicating them. My wife is oriented to this life. She thinks that as long as we do our best and are basically good people, everything will work out in the end. She's a Mormon and she thinks the church is true, but the way she talks when we discuss these matters sounds very Unitarian. She says I'm rigid when I say that there really is such a thing as truth and it matters.