"I now understand that the magnificent feeling of closeness to God comes not from being inside the edifice, but that the edifice provides me a particular space to fully engage that magnificent closeness to God."
Yes, this. I was thinking of how to respond to what CAsteinman wrote and this does the job nicely. As I've said, I'm only attracted to Catholicism since it afforded me some reasons to suspect that God might be there after all. The fact that I find Catholic churches beautiful doesn't drive my faith, weak that it is. It's only that in those spaces it's easier for me to hope that one day within such a sacred space, filled as they are with symbolic reminders of the other world, I really will have an encounter with the spirit of God. Catholic and Orthodox churches 'feel' holy to me in a way the ward house and the temple never did. I can't explain it; that's just the way it is. In fact, most Protestant churches and the ward house feel exactly like a country club to me. I don't 'feel' like holiness happens there at all. Just social gatherings.
Also, my wife doesn't feel our eternal family is shattered. She has told me that she doesn't really think that God will split us up in the next world, no matter what the church might teach on the matter. So long as I'm a good person, we'll still be married and a family.
If you are a good person whose motivation is to find truth and God, you will find him, imo, even if not in this life, than the next. Of course, because of my personal beliefs, I believe that when you do, you will find that while much of your Catholic belief is truth, the LDS faith will be closer to the ultimate truth both faiths are seeking to emulate.
Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.
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One day I want to attend mass in an ancient cathedral, but have to do so secretly. That makes me sad thinking about it.
This could give a sense of connection with the early Christians who often had to worship in secret.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
Why not agree to use the Lord's Prayer to 'introduce' your prayers together?
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
For some people this advise is all that is needed. But it may not make sense or even come across as trite for other people where there are communication problems. I can think of two examples:
1. People for whom the "Heavens are as Brass" due to some iniquity
2. People who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder but in the still small voice -- who may not recognize the still small voice when it speaks.
3. People for whom the "heaven are as brass" due to some disorder of which it is not their fault. Our physical natures can overwhelm our spiritual natures, unfortunately, and that means if there is something off physically, the spiritual lines may be blocked at our end.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
3. People for whom the "heaven are as brass" due to some disorder of which it is not their fault. Our physical natures can overwhelm our spiritual natures, unfortunately, and that means if there is something off physically, the spiritual lines may be blocked at our end.
Heavens are brass because of iniquity. At least per the scriptures.
When it is due to some disorder that is not our fault, that is really more like the second example I gave -- people who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder, but in the still small voice. They may even intellectually know this is what they are listening for and yet not recognize it.
I consider that a defect that is not exactly our fault.
Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.
It seems that she actually feels the errors in this life will transcend into the next. Thus she is concerned and nervous.
She may be right. It is a very serious thing to abandon the Gospel and Temple Covenants. But God alone is Judge and we do not have either authority or wisdom to know what He will decide on such things. However, we do know what He has warned. The term used was "buffetings of satan" -- which at least to me, suggests trouble in this life but potentially honor and glory in the future. I am grateful for the Mercy and Justice of God.
If her primary fear is for her children and not for her husband, for him she seems to feel positive, then it seems to me most likely that she is concerned for her children's lives during mortality, that they may end up not having as good of lives if they leave the Church and she doesn't want to see them suffer because of it. It may also be fear about their eternal status, but that seems contradictory to her conclusions about her husband's ultimate state...not that all of our beliefs have to be coherent and logical.
This is, of course, something spammer can talk to her about. Perhaps he can draw an analogy about how hard it must be for the Father to watch us take missteps and screw up our lives when he could step in and make it all a paradise for us, but he values even more us as individuals and is willing to suffer alongside us instead of overprotecting us from ourselves.
Edited by calmoriah, 11 July 2012 - 06:59 PM.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
First, I wish to express how deeply it saddens my heart to hear of you being under such spiritually stressful circumstances. It is my sincerest prayer that you find peace and comfort.
I want to address your inability to feel the Spirit. I have many friends who are former members of different churches who are now atheists/humanists. I don't wish to sound as though I am encouraging the same path but if that is where you believe you are being drawn then perhaps it is where you are to be or that there is something you need to learn. This perspective I present is not popular but all options must be considered. This is YOUR journey after all and not your family's or anyone else's.
If there are moments where you do feel the Spirit or feel prompted to pursue some spiritual avenue then think it over, talk to God, etc. If you receive an answer then you need to answer God's call. Even if it isn't to the LDS faith.
I don't know that you have a substance abuse problem. It is not my place to speculate on such so I won't further discuss it.
I do recommend full honesty with your wife and children. Keeping quiet about your spiritual issues is moreso problematic as it does nothing to resolve any existing problems.
I wish there were more I could say. You and your family will be in my prayers.
Grace and peace.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
I thought we were talking about an exceptional period of sincere fasting and prayer together with your wife to obtain special help from the Lord to solve your problems.
Oh, sorry. I'm with you now. My wife and I don't pray together and haven't for years. I'll broach the subject of fasting and prayer with her. I think she'll be ok with hearing me pray like a Catholic. Fasting might be an issue. She never fasts. She's not very devout. So long as the kids hear blessings on the food, have a prayer with mom at night, and have a good experience at church, then all will be right with the world.
If you are a good person whose motivation is to find truth and God, you will find him, imo, even if not in this life, than the next. Of course, because of my personal beliefs, I believe that when you do, you will find that while much of your Catholic belief is truth, the LDS faith will be closer to the ultimate truth both faiths are seeking to emulate.
After my atheist period, I wouldn't have looked into the ancient church if I thought there was good reason to think a wholesale reformation or complete restoration was warranted. Naturally, I think it's the orthodox Christian tradition that is closer to the ultimate truth. But there's no proof one way or the other. Just varying interpretations of the weight of the evidence.
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Perhaps this is how your wife understands it...that any error we make in this life will be corrected for us by God in the next life and he won't hold against us any error we made in 'good faith'.
My wife thinks that when we get to heaven that we'll all be very surprised. She thinks anyone who's a good person will be there, no matter what ordinances in life were received or what their faith was in life.
It seems that she actually feels the errors in this life will transcend into the next. Thus she is concerned and nervous.
She may be right. It is a very serious thing to abandon the Gospel and Temple Covenants. But God alone is Judge and we do not have either authority or wisdom to know what He will decide on such things. However, we do know what He has warned. The term used was "buffetings of satan" -- which at least to me, suggests trouble in this life but potentially honor and glory in the future. I am grateful for the Mercy and Justice of God.
It really is as simple as fears for our kids in this life. She doesn't want them to grow up to be bad people and she sees the church as the best vehicle to teach them the values they need in life. I don't disagree, though I don't think the LDS church monopolizes those values or means of communicating them. My wife is oriented to this life. She thinks that as long as we do our best and are basically good people, everything will work out in the end. She's a Mormon and she thinks the church is true, but the way she talks when we discuss these matters sounds very Unitarian. She says I'm rigid when I say that there really is such a thing as truth and it matters.
If her primary fear is for her children and not for her husband, for him she seems to feel positive, then it seems to me most likely that she is concerned for her children's lives during mortality, that they may end up not having as good of lives if they leave the Church and she doesn't want to see them suffer because of it. It may also be fear about their eternal status, but that seems contradictory to her conclusions about her husband's ultimate state...not that all of our beliefs have to be coherent and logical.
You hit the nail on the head. She is principally concerned for our kids' wellbeing in this life. As long as they grow up to be decent people, their eternal status will take care of itself. She's a Mormon who values the values, but doesn't care much about the doctrinal significane of ordinances apart from their status as mileposts in life. Eternal marriage, for instance, binds you eternally to your spouse. That's what counts for her, not the part about how it's required to inherit the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation.
3. People for whom the "heaven are as brass" due to some disorder of which it is not their fault. Our physical natures can overwhelm our spiritual natures, unfortunately, and that means if there is something off physically, the spiritual lines may be blocked at our end.
This kind of list is one of the things that really bugs me about many church members. Please understand, I don't mean to offend. I'm not looking for any apologies. I'll apologize in advance if what I'm about to say seems offensive. I don't mean it to be. But I need to get it out there. I've allowed myself to become so angry, but this is the cause. There's a tendency to always look for an explanation for why people don't gain a testimony, don't feel the spirit, don't gain that witness that the church is true. In my experience, it typically takes the form of blaming the person. Either he fails to realize the spirit speaks in a still small voice, or the heavens are like brass due to iniquity, or they have a disorder, or they weren't really sincere, or they lacked faith, or the spirit whispered and they weren't listening due to distractions, or they prayed and forgot to remain silently listening for the whispering of the spirit, or they prayed but not with real intent. I understand why some make these statements. I get it. They have felt the spirit and it's inconceivable that someone like me could exist, since God is faithful and answers prayers. There has to be an explanation. No matter how well-meaning, it feels like my character is being impugned when people talk like this. Not so much when someone wonders whether I have a disorder, that's pretty neutral. But the other kinds of comments suggest that I'm either a sinner or uninformed. Both are insulting. I'm trying really hard to not feel this way. Hanging out on this forum talking to all of you has really help in this regard.
Well, from my point of view, there's another possible explanation for why I never felt the spirit: maybe God was silent when I prayed and asked for a witness because the church really isn't true after all. When I researched Christian origins, I discovered the evidence for continuity was stronger that the evidence for and apostasy. In my mind, that explained why I had never felt the spirit at church. I know there will be disagreement since church members feel the spirit all the time on Sundays. That's fine, really. More power to you. I'm happy you've found your way and like where you are. All I ask in return from church members in my life is the courtesy of accepting that I was sincere in my search and have arrived at different conclusions. I'm not iniquitous, nor did I pray wrong, listen wrong, fast wrong, magnify my callings wrong, believe wrong, nor do I have a disorder, nor is it my parents fault. I'm ok. There's nothing wrong with me. I just didn't feel the spirit at church and my research led me to a different place. I told the bishop this a few weeks ago when my wife and I met with him. He asked if we could discuss my feelings about the church and I told him that's fine so long as we start from the premise that when I sought to gain a testimony that I was sincere, faithful, magnifying my callings, desirous of that witness, not hiding a secret sin, that I really did do it right and God didn't answer me. He chuckled and said "Well then there's not much to say, you're not speaking our language." That's when he turned to my wife and advised her to face the facts. The last time my mom and I discussed the church (five years ago) she wanted to talk about my lack of a testimony and I told her the same thing: "mom, I love you but if you want to start with the idea that I did something wrong, then we have nothing to talk about. If that's what you and dad really think, then let's just end the conversation right here." She ended it and we haven't discussed the church since. Our relationship is great, we just never talk about church.
I still haven't felt God's presence in any recognizable way, but that doesn't mean it won't happen one day. There are many examples of Christians who suffered long periods of feeling separated from God and were rewarded after faithfully staying on the path for many long years. That's what I hang on to. But lacking any spiritual experiences, the only thing to do is study which of the many paths seems to be the one with the best claims and strongest evidence that it is the means by which to acquire such experiences. This I have done and I found myself in the ancient Christian faith, with the hope that one day I will finally experience the presence of God. I'm interested in truth and the question of 'did Christ or the apostles set up a church?' matters to me. I think that question is vitally important. Whether the answer is yes or no has profound implications of the path I need to be on. My wife doesn't care about any of that at all. Just be a good person and it will all work out. We'll all be surprised when we cross over to the next life. That's her motto. Although she has told me that she thinks that it really doesn't matter what church you go to, she does think the LDS way is the best way to raise kids. Oddly, even though she thinks it doesn't matter what church you go to, she wants me to only attend the LDS church with her. I suppose that's not so odd. Since churches are all basically the same, I suppose she just doesn't get why I think truth matters so much. I want Christ himself as he comes to us in the eucharist, to form the one Body of Christ. I want the true church. She doesn't think there's a single "true church". There are pros and cons. She'll never come over to my point of view, but at least she's not a true believer who fears that her exaltation is at stake. I've heard horror stories of faithful LDS members dumping their apostate spouses to protect their chances at exaltation. I don't think I'll ever be faced with that and that's a blessing.
This kind of list is one of the things that really bugs me about many church members.
I have no problem with that. Personally I think with lists if we are being accurate they would generally have to be endless to cover all the variations.
If you are not looking for a reason and can accept God's Will for you no matter what, this is the best way to live imo. Since so many do ask for reasons why, I just assumed you were at that stage as well.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
I have no problem with that. Personally I think with lists if we are being accurate they would generally have to be endless to cover all the variations.
If you are not looking for a reason and can accept God's Will for you no matter what, this is the best way to live imo. Since so many do ask for reasons why, I just assumed you were at that stage as well.
I'm not looking for any reasons now and haven't for a long time. I did look for reasons at first, when I began wondering why God was silent after years of fervent prayer on my part. That's when I first started talking to friends and family and that's when the reasons began. At first I listened to them. I went from through a phase of extreme self-doubt, "what the heck am I doing wrong", redoubling my efforts to no avail. The reasons still kept coming at me from church members. Then I got mad. Not productive, I know. But perhaps, understandable.
Well, from my point of view, there's another possible explanation for why I never felt the spirit: maybe God was silent when I prayed and asked for a witness because the church really isn't true after all. When I researched Christian origins, I discovered the evidence for continuity was stronger that the evidence for and apostasy. In my mind, that explained why I had never felt the spirit at church. I know there will be disagreement since church members feel the spirit all the time on Sundays. That's fine, really. More power to you. I'm happy you've found your way and like where you are. All I ask in return from church members in my life is the courtesy of accepting that I was sincere in my search and have arrived at different conclusions. I'm not iniquitous, nor did I pray wrong, listen wrong, fast wrong, magnify my callings wrong, believe wrong, nor do I have a disorder, nor is it my parents fault. I'm ok. There's nothing wrong with me. I just didn't feel the spirit at church and my research led me to a different place.
I recall reading that you have been through the temple. There are certain qualifications to obtain a temple recommend including a testimony of the restoration and a commitment to honesty. Is it possible that you did have a testimony at one time and you've lost touch with something you once had?
I recall reading that you have been through the temple. There are certain qualifications to obtain a temple recommend including a testimony of the restoration and a commitment to honesty. Is it possible that you did have a testimony at one time and you've lost touch with something you once had?
Hi, thanks for your reply. I had a testimony based on the testimony of my parents and a testimony based on being raised in the church with the goal of going on a mission and a strong desire for receiving my own personal witness one day. When asked if I had a testimony I could honestly answer yes on that basis. I did not have a testimony based on an independent spiritual witness granted to me as a result of study and prayer (Moroni 10:3-5), nor had I ever felt the spirit in any recognizable way. But I still had hope. At the MTC, one day we were discussing testimonies and I excused myself, found an empty room, and poured out my heart to God for a witness, tears streaming down my face. My first day in the mission field I got on my knees that morning and once again asked for that witness. At the first zone conference, an AP asked me to relate my experience of gaining a witness. I made something up but in my heart I knew it was a fabrication. Another time, when I was district leader, the zone leaders were with my companion and I as we challenged an investigator to pray for his own witness. He liked the church and wanted to be baptized, but not without first receiving his own witness as promised by Moroni 10:3-5. The ward mission leader was there too. All six of us knelt while this investigator poured out his heart. After he said amen, the senior zone leader, with tears in his eyes, said he felt the spirit so strongly right then and asked if the investigator felt it too. He said no. I didn't feel anything either. The investigator stood up and said, "sorry guys, I just don't feel anything. I can't do this anymore." And that was that. We rode away on our bikes and I was crying. My companion thought I was upset at losing the investigator. I was mostly upset because I too felt absolutely nothing. I still had not received a witness. As senior zone leader, right before going home, a new set of morning study guides came out to go with the new discussions. There were cassette tapes we had to play and listen along to as we studied together. At one point, the narrator asked us to bear our testimonies to each other and relate time when we recieved the witness of the spirit that the church was true. Same as nearly two years prior, I had nothing and made something up. Inside, I was shaking. I extended my mission for another month to the maximum allowable 25 months. I was filled with faith and hope, even after two years of failure to gain a witness or even feel the spirit once. I went home with that experience. A few months later, I asked my mom why, why would God not answer my prayers for a witness, some kind of spiritual experience like the kind she told me she had, llike my dad said that he had, like grandma, aunts and uncles, church friends, leaders. All she offered was the usual response: "but didn't you have a testimony on your mission? Can't you rely on our experiences, isn't that enough? I've had dreams, I know the church is true." No, it's not enough. I needed my own witness. I needed Moroni's Promise to be fulfilled, exactly as promised. It never was. Then I went to the university library and began digging into ancient history and church history (pre-internet). Over the course of a few years as I was working on my first degree, the whole house of cards collapsed and I became an atheist. I've found since that my experience is not uncommon and a move to atheism seems to be typical of those who leave the church. I don't know why that is.
First, I wish to express how deeply it saddens my heart to hear of you being under such spiritually stressful circumstances. It is my sincerest prayer that you find peace and comfort.
I want to address your inability to feel the Spirit. I have many friends who are former members of different churches who are now atheists/humanists. I don't wish to sound as though I am encouraging the same path but if that is where you believe you are being drawn then perhaps it is where you are to be or that there is something you need to learn. This perspective I present is not popular but all options must be considered. This is YOUR journey after all and not your family's or anyone else's.
If there are moments where you do feel the Spirit or feel prompted to pursue some spiritual avenue then think it over, talk to God, etc. If you receive an answer then you need to answer God's call. Even if it isn't to the LDS faith.
I don't know that you have a substance abuse problem. It is not my place to speculate on such so I won't further discuss it.
I do recommend full honesty with your wife and children. Keeping quiet about your spiritual issues is moreso problematic as it does nothing to resolve any existing problems.
I wish there were more I could say. You and your family will be in my prayers.
Grace and peace.
Thank you for your prayers, Valentinus. What I believe is that I was led to Catholicism, though I don't know if the sense of being led equals God pulling me or my own intellectual curiosity pulling me. It's just a sense of this is where I needed to and where I need to be. The feeling (if that's what it is) or sense (if that's what it is) emerged and remained with me, slowly growing stronger, after careful reading of the New Testament and the early church fathers convinced me that there wasn't much evidence for an Apostasy after all. Then I discovered through my research that there's a direct link between the ancient Christian liturgy and the liturgy of the 1st Jewish temple (pre-600 BCE). That clinched it for me. First came the intellectual discovery, then came the study of the ancient tradition and the philosophical and theological arguments that came out of it. The sense of a need to unite myself to the ancient church grew slowly but surely alongside as I conducted my research. It took quite a few years, but eventually the sense of being pulled grew so strong that I had to do something about it. The rest is history.
Oh, sorry. I'm with you now. My wife and I don't pray together and haven't for years.
As you may remember, one of the duties of home teachers in Mormonism is to urge families to "pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties" (D&C 20:47). Prayer is considered the most important duty. Indeed, in Mormon scripture neglecting one's prayers (especially family prayers) is almost a disciplinary offence: "And a commandment I give unto them—that he that observeth not his prayers before the Lord in the season thereof, let him be had in remembrance before the judge of my people" (D&C 68:33). The "judge" is the bishop. In other words, it is almost counts as a transgression. If you and your wife have not prayed together for years, that may point to one of the sources of your problems. The fact that you belong to different churches does not prevent you from having family prayers.
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I'll broach the subject of fasting and prayer with her. I think she'll be ok with hearing me pray like a Catholic.
So tell me how the Catholics pray. I didn't think the difference should be so great as to create a divide.
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Fasting might be an issue. She never fasts. She's not very devout. So long as the kids hear blessings on the food, have a prayer with mom at night, and have a good experience at church, then all will be right with the world.
Perhaps she needs some encouragement from you. You need to set her an example.
Thank you for your prayers, Valentinus. What I believe is that I was led to Catholicism, though I don't know if the sense of being led equals God pulling me or my own intellectual curiosity pulling me. It's just a sense of this is where I needed to and where I need to be. The feeling (if that's what it is) or sense (if that's what it is) emerged and remained with me, slowly growing stronger, after careful reading of the New Testament and the early church fathers convinced me that there wasn't much evidence for an Apostasy after all. Then I discovered through my research that there's a direct link between the ancient Christian liturgy and the liturgy of the 1st Jewish temple (pre-600 BCE). That clinched it for me. First came the intellectual discovery, then came the study of the ancient tradition and the philosophical and theological arguments that came out of it. The sense of a need to unite myself to the ancient church grew slowly but surely alongside as I conducted my research. It took quite a few years, but eventually the sense of being pulled grew so strong that I had to do something about it. The rest is history.
Have you read the Book of Mormon lately? I wondered what are your thoughts on that.
It really is as simple as fears for our kids in this life. She doesn't want them to grow up to be bad people and she sees the church as the best vehicle to teach them the values they need in life. I don't disagree, though I don't think the LDS church monopolizes those values or means of communicating them. My wife is oriented to this life. She thinks that as long as we do our best and are basically good people, everything will work out in the end. She's a Mormon and she thinks the church is true, but the way she talks when we discuss these matters sounds very Unitarian. She says I'm rigid when I say that there really is such a thing as truth and it matters.
Some of the very best and finest people I have met in this life have been Roman Catholics. Honest and full of integrity.
But I think the LDS Church has a sharper focus on strengthening families. If I did not actually care about religion or truth so that it did not matter where I went to Church, I might still want to raise my kids LDS for that reason.
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Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:
But there's no proof one way or the other. Just varying interpretations of the weight of the evidence.
