67 replies to this topic

[KevinG]

I was really confrontational yesterday.  You didn't need that.

I'm sorry.

I need to learn patience and understand sometimes the pointed statements are coming from hurt not a desire to belittle.

Thanks.

[Spammer]

CASteinman, on 11 July 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Your wife may be unreasonable but she has some justification:  You married her under a set of promises that you have abandoned.  She would actually have some pretty good reasons to feel betrayed.

You are thus in a difficult situation.  To be "true" to your current self, you must betray both your wife and your former self along with the promises made.  

Which is not quite a situation I have experienced in my life the way you have, but I think I understand it.  

God bless you that you may find some way through this that can maximize harmony.

I confess, although I have always said that if I were not a Mormon, I would be a Catholic, I do not at all understand your need (it seems like a visceral addiction) to the pomp and ceremony and idolatry of Catholicism.  It becomes even more strange to me that you love all of that even while you wonder if there is even a God.  

Board rules would seemingly prevent me from saying more....

CAsteinman,

Naturally, since I no longer believe in Joseph Smith's revelations, I no longer believe that I made any promises to God.  Promises to my wife are a different matter.  But I think the same applies.  Think of a Catholic man who marries his Catholic wife and promies her and God at home after the wedding that he will always be faithful to her and to the Church.  Then one day the missionaries knock on his door and he decides to be baptized into the LDS church.  Did he betray his wife?  Did he betray God?  Both?  Maybe he betrayed her, but not God, not if the LDS church is true.  I view it exactly the same way, but in reverse.

I hope I explained in my previous post why I like the bells and whistles of Catholicism.  What you call pomp and ceremony, I call a beautiful liturgy  - directly descended from the liturgy of the ancient Jewish temple, with Jesus as the Great High Priest officiating at the altar behind the veil in the holy of holies.  The liturgy is believed to be the earthly copy of the heavenly liturgy; on earth as it is in heaven.   What you call idolatry, I call the communion of saints.  Just like you can ask Thomas S. Monson to say a prayer for you if you ever meet him, in the communion of saints you can do the same even if he's dead.  There is no seperation of worlds in Catholicism.  It's all one Christian family.  On earth as it is in heaven.  Just because a saint has died doesn't mean I can't ask him or her to pray for me.  That's what the statues and teachings about the communion of saints are all about.  I hope that makes sense as an explanation of what I find appealing, not that I think you'll agree much of it is doctrinally valid.

Edited by Spammer, 11 July 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Spammer]

KevinG, on 11 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

I was really confrontational yesterday.  You didn't need that.

I'm sorry.

I need to learn patience and understand sometimes the pointed statements are coming from hurt not a desire to belittle.

Thanks.

THANK YOU.  I need to apologize to you.  That's why I started this apology thread, to say sorry to everyone for letting my bitterness and frustration get the better of me.  It's so easy for me to lash out, when I just want answers and a solution to my family's crisis - THAT I AM THE CAUSE OF.  Here's the ironic and beautiful thing.  I've had the same discussion with Catholics and they give me the exact same kind of advice.  In fact, the priests I've discussed this with (three so far) have all told me to just be a Christ in the home.  Be a source of love and go to church with my wife.  Go to mass, too, of course.  My weakness is that I freeze up on doing the latter for fear of upsetting my wife and kids.  All my wife needs to do is give me that look that I'm hurting her and I collapse.  Then I start whipping myself later for being so weak-willed.

All's well, Kevin.  I really appreciate your post.  Thanks so much.

Edited by Spammer, 11 July 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[KevinG]

Thanks - I must take responsibility too.  I love to spar and tease and I let myself go too far.

Keep asking questions and keeping us honest.  That is a good reason to engage on this board.

[zerinus]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

The problem for me is that I want to pray like a Catholic. She finds that kind of prayer strange. I find it hard to utter the words "Dear Heavenly Father". Yes, I know, that's strange. But it is what it is. I prayed that way for many years with no recognizable effect.  Anytime I utter the standard LDS opening, I instantly feel like I'm praying to Zeus. I know in principle that God doesn't care how I address him, but that doesn't change the fact that praying like a Mormon feels exactly like I'm praying to some mythological being.

I didn't know there was a "standard mormon prayer". How about praying as the Bible says, "Our father which art in heaven . . ."? Do I detect excuses in here somewhere?

[Spammer]

zerinus, on 11 July 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

I didn't know there was a "standard mormon prayer". How about praying as the Bible says, "Our father which art in heaven . . ."? Do I detect excuses in here somewhere?

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off.  The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father".  The way I always started mine off.

[KevinG]

The standard form is based on the Lord's prayer...  

Address our Father in Heaven (Dear Father, Our Father, Our Kind Father, Our Father In Heaven hallowed be thy name...)
Thank Him for our blessings
Ask Him for what we need (blessings, forgiveness)
Close in the Name of our Savior Jesus Christ (who is our intercessor with God the Father)

When I first received a witness of the Holy Ghost the missionaries taught me something very important.  The unwritten step is to listen for a response.  We would not ask a question then hang up the phone.  In prayer we need to give some time to receive a response by pondering and listening.  If we don't receive an answer right away we continue to petition God and seek His will.

[Spammer]

Right.  I pray the Our Father all the time.  What I never say is "Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day..."  Weird, I know.

[why me]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

My Catholicism and my wife's Mormonism seem to be incompatible.  In my home it has to be one or the other, and my wife insists that anything Catholic stay hidden away.  She gets to live her faith openly, I have to sneak around and pretend.  I'm resentful.

It doesn't need to be this way at all. Once you are honest with your wife all may be well. Eventually she will find out. My children know that I attend catholic mass too. I also help out with the missionaries of charity at times. There are no problems. The point is: don't speak negatively of the lds church, be a good person, show how going to mass helps you go through life, attend sacrament meetings at times, and be supportive of your wife's mormonism. Since being catholic is basically attending mass on saturday or sunday, it should be no problem to live it openly. And it may even be possible to have a very tasteful statue of the virgin mary in your home. Also, you can invite your wife to a catholic flea market to raise money of the church. I wish you luck.

[why me]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off.  The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father".  The way I always started mine off.

There is nothing wrong with this in the catholic faith either. I hear priests begin their prayers at times with Father, be with us this day....

It gives the prayer a personal touch. Catholics just don't pray by saying the our father. They also use more personal expressions for the beginning their prayers.

[Spammer]

why me, on 11 July 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong with this in the catholic faith either. I hear priests begin their prayers at times with Father, be with us this day....

It gives the prayer a personal touch. Catholics just don't pray by saying the our father. They also use more personal expressions for the beginning their prayers.

Yes, I agree.  All I'm saying is I spent a lifetime with the personal kind of expression and it got me nowhere.  It really does feel like praying to Zeus when I pray that way.  The centuries-old rote prayers are much easier to pray.  They're new to me.  Like I said, weird.  Just a hunch, but I tried so very hard with tears for years to gain a testimony and failed, that maybe anything remotely resembling an LDS approach to spirituality was burned out of me.  Scorched earth.

[CASteinman]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Naturally, since I no longer believe in Joseph Smith's revelations, I no longer believe that I made any promises to God.  Promises to my wife are a different matter.  But I think the same applies.

That is why I said that to be true to your new self you must betray your old self and promises made.  Which is a difficult position to be in.   In addition, regardless of what you now believe, the promises made in the Temple were serious with eternal implications.  Your wife is having to deal with the consequences of a choice she is not in control of but which she may feel affects her profoundly.

In other words, she may be in every bit as much a box as you feel yourself to be in.

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Think of a Catholic man who marries his Catholic wife and promies her and God at home after the wedding that he will always be faithful to her and to the Church.  Then one day the missionaries knock on his door and he decides to be baptized into the LDS church.  Did he betray his wife?  Did he betray God?  Both?  Maybe he betrayed her, but not God, not if the LDS church is true.  I view it exactly the same way, but in reverse.

If the Roman Catholic Church were the true Church, then maybe he betrayed God.  Whether he betrayed his wife or not is a more individual issue and would depend upon how she perceived the marriage and how he changed following the conversion.

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

I hope I explained in my previous post why I like the bells and whistles of Catholicism.  

This post was much better at that explanation.

However, I do not consider myself entitled to nor demanding of an explanation.  I was not looking for one -- and I probably should have made that clear.  I was merely expressing my confusion at it -- I don't understand it.  Which is something inside me, not so much inside you.   But, that you are attracted to all of that from the Catholic Church and yet you do not believe in God -- well that is actually sort of disturbing.

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

What you call idolatry, I call the communion of saints.  Just like you can ask Thomas S. Monson to say a prayer for you if you ever meet him, in the communion of saints you can do the same even if he's dead.

Honestly, I would not only never ask him to say a prayer for me, it would never enter my mind to do so.  Moreover, except in some very intimate situations, I would be dismayed if anyone that I knew asked that and would be embarrassed to be around if I saw it happen.   It is so presumptuous in so many ways.  I could not be comfortable with that.

I would consider it much worse than when Catholics pray to Saints.

As I have said, if I were not Mormon I would be Catholic.

[Spammer]

CAsteinman,

If I didn't believe in God, I would still be an atheist.  I struggle with my faith, but I wouldn't say I don't believe in God.  What I am is a believer with periodic bouts of doubt that he exists.  That might be too fine a disinction for you, but I know I'm not the only one in that situation.  I can consider myself to be a believer if, despite a lack of experiential evidence, I choose to believe based on compelling philosophical grounds.  I'm much like the man who told Jesus "Lord I believe.  Help thou my unbelief!"  In my reading, that expression of desperate, hopeful faith still led to Christ's blessing.  I hope that clarifies.

Edited by Spammer, 11 July 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[CASteinman]

KevinG, on 11 July 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

When I first received a witness of the Holy Ghost the missionaries taught me something very important.  The unwritten step is to listen for a response.  We would not ask a question then hang up the phone.  In prayer we need to give some time to receive a response by pondering and listening.  If we don't receive an answer right away we continue to petition God and seek His will.

For some people this advise is all that is needed.  But it may not make sense or even come across as trite for other people where there are communication problems.  I can think of two examples:

1.  People for whom the "Heavens are as Brass" due to some iniquity
2.  People who do not recognize that God is not in the whirlwind and the Thunder but in the still small voice -- who may not recognize the still small voice when it speaks.

Especially in the latter case, these people are not bad or evil.  But they have not been taught sufficiently and do not have experience with answers.  Saying "Wait and Listen" is pretty much like an instruction in English to a person who only knows Chinese.  It makes no sense and does not match to something that they relate to.  

Learning the Spirit and learning to wait not just a few moments but possibly much longer periods of times are important things and the first item may even take some one on one coaching in person.

[CASteinman]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

If I didn't believe in God, I would still be an atheist.  I struggle with my faith, but I wouldn't say I don't believe in God. ... I choose to believe based on compelling philosophical grounds.  I'm much like the man who told Jesus "Lord I believe.  Help thou my unbelief!"  In my reading, that expression of desperate, hopeful faith still led to Christ's blessing.  I hope that clarifies.

Yes it does clarify.  I did not understand you exactly right.  I was under the impression that you were more of an atheist seeking to believe.   Which I now understand is incorrect.

[zerinus]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

No no, I only mean the way that most Mormons in my life start their prayers off.  The standard Mormon prayer opening, just like they taught in seminary and Sunday School to always begin with "Dear Heavenly Father".  The way I always started mine off.

So tell me something, how would you Like to start your prayers?

[zerinus]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Right.  I pray the Our Father all the time.  What I never say is "Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day..."  Weird, I know.

The answer then is to pray the way you want to pray, and let your wife pray the way she wants to pray.

[Spammer]

zerinus, on 11 July 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

The answer then is to pray the way you want to pray, and let your wife pray the way she wants to pray.

I agree.  It would just be nice if I could pray the way I'm comfortable praying in front of the kids.  You know, just be myself without causing any worry or stress..

[zerinus]

Spammer, on 11 July 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I agree.  It would just be nice if I could pray the way I'm comfortable praying in front of the kids.  You know, just be myself without causing any worry or stress..

I thought we were talking about an exceptional period of sincere fasting and prayer together with your wife to obtain special help from the Lord to solve your problems.

[rpn]

If your wife doesn't know about faceseast.org, then you might suggest she go there for support.  But please resist the urge to go there to see what she is thinking or saying.

If she and you had children planning to raise them LDS, then I get why they are being raised lds.  

But I'm thinking she doesn't understand agency very well.  You should no more have to sneak around to go to your church service as she does to hers.   I am sorry for this.   She's probably pretending herself.  She might get a whole lot of relief at faceseast talking with others in her situation.

ETA.  It is alright to correct the teacher's misunderstanding of catholicism, if you find it there.  And it is important to teach your sons that they should never make fun of another's faith.  Your wife should support you on that as there have been conference talks on tolerance and acceptance before.

(And please tell your wife that her sons will find out about this at some point and the hiding of your disbelief is likely to do as much damage or more than them now knowing that you don't believe and their mother does.

Edited by rpn, 11 July 2012 - 04:53 PM.