Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) A simple yes or no will do...and I say a resounding YES... polygamy is still church doctrine and is still practiced in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.So why all the denials and attempts to distance themselves from this foundational doctrine? Why not own it and proudly proclaim to all of the world this most wonderful doctrine of God's one true church?So what say you...good and faithful member/posters of the MD&D? Edited July 10, 2012 by Craig Paxton Link to comment
Deborah Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Polygamy as understood to be having more than one wife in this life or polygamy as referred to sealing to more than one spouse when one is deceased? I think when people talk about polygamy they think the former therefore it isn't something we claim. We do claim that sealings still take place.I don't see why you are hung up on it. It's not something we currently do and people outside the church wouldn't understand the sealing part of it. 1 Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) Polygamy as understood to be having more than one wife in this life or polygamy as referred to sealing to more than one spouse when one is deceased? I think when people talk about polygamy they think the former therefore it isn't something we claim. We do claim that sealings still take place.I don't see why you are hung up on it. It's not something we currently do and people outside the church wouldn't understand the sealing part of it.Nuance aside...I'll mark that in the YES column... Edited July 10, 2012 by Craig Paxton Link to comment
cdowis Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) There is polygamy as a doctrine, and polygamy as a practice.It is still a doctrine, but practiced only in the context of sealing to one living wife, and multiple wives who are deceased. Edited July 10, 2012 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
Olavarria Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Doctrine: yes. Section 132 is still on the books.Practice: no. Tell your stake president you want to get sealed to more than one living woman and see what happends. Link to comment
Olavarria Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Btw, animal sacrifice, circumsicion and Nazaritic vows are also a doctrine. What difference does it make? 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Nuance aside...I'll mark that in the YES column...Which is a very good illustration of why insisting on a one-word answer to questions is not helpful in arriving at truth. 4 Link to comment
cdowis Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Even the children of a polygamous family need to get First Presidency approval to join the church. The church is very careful. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yes. It is doctrine. Is it practiced as it was in the 1800's? Nope. Link to comment
cdowis Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Btw, animal sacrifice, circumsicion and Nazaritic vows are also a doctrine. What difference does it make?You are mistaken. They were not "doctrine" but the practice of certain doctrines. It is easy to confuse practice with doctrine. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Which is a very good illustration of why insisting on a one-word answer to questions is not helpful in arriving at truth."Have you stopped beating your wife?" A simple yes or no will do.I hope this also illustrates the issue in Craig's line of thinking. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 So why all the denials and attempts to distance themselves from this foundational doctrine? Why not own it and proudly proclaim to all of the world this most wonderful doctrine of God's one true church?So what say you...good and faithful member/posters of the MD&D?Yes, we don't proclaim it because just saying we believe in polygamy is deceptive as that is not what people would think if we were yelling about polygamy in the streets. Without an explanation it would give people the wrong idea.A yes or no answer is deceptive akin to asking LDS if they believe in one God.It's a wonderful rhetorical trick though.My favorite question attached to that is Homer Simpson's:Can God microwave a burrito so hot that not even he could eat it? Yes or no only. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You are mistaken. They were not "doctrine" but the practice of certain doctrines. It is easy to confuse practice with doctrine.I think Olivarria's comparison is very apt. These are all things that are like plural marriage in that God, for His own reasons, has commanded in the past but they are not at present required or authorized. Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yes, we don't proclaim it because just saying we believe in polygamy is deceptive as that is not what people would think if we were yelling about polygamy in the streets. Without an explanation it would give people the wrong idea.A yes or no answer is deceptive akin to asking LDS if they believe in one God.It's a wonderful rhetorical trick though.My favorite question attached to that is Homer Simpson's:Can God microwave a burrito so hot that not even he could eat it? Yes or no only.Now if that question was asked of the devil I'd have to say No...the hotter the better...but with God...I'd have to give it further thought... Link to comment
Mark Beesley Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) A simple yes or no will do...and I say a resounding YES... polygamy is still church doctrine and is still practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.Before answering, I guess I would need you to clarify. What do you define as polygamy, and what do you mean when you say it is still practiced in the Church?I do not consider myself a polygamist, nor does the Church. I was sealed to my first wife, but we are divorced. The sealing has never been canceled. I am remarried, and am sealed to my wife. I am sealed, at present, to two living spouses, but legally married to only one. Do you consider me to be a polygamist? If so, why should we care that you define polygamy differently than the rest of the us, i.e. the civil law and the Church? Edited July 10, 2012 by Mark Beesley Link to comment
guerreiro9 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think Craig Paxton is asking for a simple answer to a complicated question (and I think he knows this given some of his previous threads, but I'll play along). By the way Craig, I hope you keep posting your threads and questions, they make for a very lively forum.First of all the question "Is Polygamy Still Church Doctrine" is vague, and can be answered with a yes and a no depending upon how the person answering interprets your question.For myself, I don't feel a simple yes or no will suffice, so I will give the best answer I can in as concise a response as possible.Does the LDS church believe polygamy is inherently a sin? No, it does not.Does the LDS church believe God has approved of and commanded people to practice polygamy at various times? Yes, it does.Is the the LDS church currently practicing polygamy? No, it is not.Would the LDS church practice polygamy in the future if command by God? Yet, it would.There you go, 2 no, 2 yes.(First post by the way, but I have been lurking for a while) 1 Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ok I'll lift the nuance ban...nuance away. My point was that it seems to me that the church is somewhat embarrassed of its polygamist past and its current polygamist practices done even today in temples throughout the world...I guess...I'd would just like to see the institutional church take ownership of this practice and proudly claim it. There are, if memory serves me correctly, two current members of the 12 apostles who are polygamist today...Nelson and Oaks. I am not aware of any others. There may also be some other current polygamist GA's in some of the other quorums...but I am not aware of them.My grandfather was a polygamist...as currently practiced and authorized by the church...as are several members of my former ward.The concept of Celestial/polygamist marriage is a key doctrine of the church...I'm just surprised that the concept of multiple eternal wives isn't more fully celebrated/taught in the church....rather than being hide under a bushel. Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Before answering, I guess I would need you to clarify. What do you define as polygamy, and what do you mean when you say it is still practiced in the Church?I do not consider myself a polygamist, nor does the Church. I was sealed to my first wife, but we are divorced. The sealing has never been canceled. I am remarried, and am sealed to my wife. I am sealed, at present, to two living spouses, but legally married to only one. Do you consider me to be a polygamist? If so, why should we care that you define polygamy differently than the rest of the us, i.e. the civil law and the Church?Well few here really care what I think but... in an eternal sense...and in the eyes of God...I would ahve to say that yes currently you are married eternally to more than one wife and are thus a polygamist. Now to nuance that statement...I'm sure that things will get sorted out in the eternities Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 I hope you keep posting your threads and questions, they make for a very lively forum.Shushhhhhhhh...don't egg him on... Link to comment
rongo Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Before answering, I guess I would need you to clarify. What do you define as polygamy, and what do you mean when you say it is still practiced in the Church?I do not consider myself a polygamist, nor does the Church. I was sealed to my first wife, but we are divorced. The sealing has never been canceled. I am remarried, and am sealed to my wife. I am sealed, at present, to two living spouses, but legally married to only one. Do you consider me to be a polygamist? If so, why should we care that you define polygamy differently than the rest of the us, i.e. the civil law and the Church?This ^^^^^^ We obtained a sealing clearance for a man in our ward who was sealed to two other living women (civil divorces, both of them). While the CHI says that this cannot be done, I am aware of other exceptions to this. There is nothing that the keys of the President of the Church cannot authorize, as an exception.It is silly to claim that these people, or Mark Beesley, are polygamists. The connotation of bringing up polygamy is simultaneous cohabitation. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'm just surprised that the concept of multiple eternal wives isn't more fully celebrated/taught in the church....rather than being hide under a bushel.Same reason we don't perform temple ceremonies at the Manti Pageant? Link to comment
Mark Beesley Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well few here really care what I think but... in an eternal sense...and in the eyes of God...I would ahve to say that yes currently you are married eternally to more than one wife and are thus a polygamist. Now to nuance that statement...I'm sure that things will get sorted out in the eternitiesHmmmm. So, essentially what you want is for the Church to proudly proclaim that it believes and practices something using your chosen terminology? That's just nuts.Marriage and sealing are not the same thing. Marriage is a mortal construct. Sealing is eternal. And the term polygamy is not found in the scriptures, except in Official Declaration 1 where President Woodruf delcares that we are not teaching or practicing it.. So, you are confusing yourself by not be precise enough with the language you use. 1 Link to comment
guerreiro9 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Shushhhhhhhh...don't egg him on...There's very little value in discussing a topic with only one point of view, and many times you bring another point of view to the discussion.By the way, I do agree with you that the LDS church should "try" to be more open about their beliefs (polygamy included) whenever possible.The problem is most of the beliefs are much more nuanced and require a better platform than is usually provided by a reporter looking for a sound bite. So many times it is "safer" and easier in the moment to simply say we don't practice polygamy (technically correct) than to try to go into all the nuances that will end up on the cutting room floor.The printed world allows for much better explanations of doctrine, and I have never read a complete disavowal of polygamy in any printed church material (though I have heard them spoken). Link to comment
blackstrap Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 To Craig, if the Church were to again institute polygamy in all its glory,would you then rejoin the saints and live the laws as defined by the Brethern? If so, then perhaps we should petition Salt Lake to quickly follow your suggestion.That way they would be guided by the Saviors admonition to leave the 90 and 9 and seek the lost sheep......dern the torpedoes. Link to comment
Sine Saw Square Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 World's perspective:Guy who sleeps with hundreds of women without commitment= rockstar, stud, idolGuy who marries and commits to several women= criminal, extreme, evil b____dNot saying I advocate or endorse polygamy at all. The comparison just strikes me as curious. 3 Link to comment
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