52 replies to this topic

[bu11fr0g]

Joseph Smith used his seer stone in a hat to translate portions of the Book of Mormon.  In Mormon Doctrine, it says that the Church still has his seer stone.
The seer stones by description sound like they were found in ordinary ways and by appearence are generally unremarkable stones.

If God can use seer stones to bring out the text of the Book of Mormon, this implies that translation and the ability of God to work within people's mindset are much more complex than I had appreciated.

Why not allow the seer stone to be displayed?  Who can see them?  Are they special after the person who they belonged to dies?

[DBMormon]

Brant..... what do you think?

[Brant Gardner]

There was at least one seer stone on display in a museum on Temple Square some 50-ish years ago when I saw it there. In the lore of stones, there was always something unusual about the stone that could be recognized. One Utah record has a person knowing when he found one, but not being able to use it.

From our perspective, they are all simply stones and they were special only to the person who used them (or, like any other object, they could be special because they were associated with a person that we remember). For example, we still attach meaning to the seer stones that are associated with Joseph, but if we were to find such a stone that had been used by a person we had never heard of, I doubt we would think much of it.

[Jaybear]

Brant Gardner, on 09 July 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

There was at least one seer stone on display in a museum on Temple Square some 50-ish years ago when I saw it there. In the lore of stones, there was always something unusual about the stone that could be recognized. One Utah record has a person knowing when he found one, but not being able to use it.

From our perspective, they are all simply stones and they were special only to the person who used them (or, like any other object, they could be special because they were associated with a person that we remember). For example, we still attach meaning to the seer stones that are associated with Joseph, but if we were to find such a stone that had been used by a person we had never heard of, I doubt we would think much of it.

Be careful.  In defense of Smith's use of the stones to locate buried treasure, some of the members here reminded critics of the magical powers of divining rods.  So, I am not so certain you can speak on such correlated terms for Mormons.  Obviously some of you still believe that objects can imbued with supernatural powers.

[Tacenda]

bu11fr0g, on 09 July 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Joseph Smith used his seer stone in a hat to translate portions of the Book of Mormon.  In Mormon Doctrine, it says that the Church still has his seer stone.
The seer stones by description sound like they were found in ordinary ways and by appearence are generally unremarkable stones.

If God can use seer stones to bring out the text of the Book of Mormon, this implies that translation and the ability of God to work within people's mindset are much more complex than I had appreciated.

Why not allow the seer stone to be displayed?  Who can see them?  Are they special after the person who they belonged to dies?

You are able to visit the Wilford Wood Museum in Woods Cross, Utah....  

http://wilfordwoodmu...com/AboutUS.htm


to see the Peyote Seerstone that Joseph Smith used and it is featured in the article below...

http://robschneider....-a-Closet-Hippy

Edited by Tacenda, 09 July 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[Brant Gardner]

Jaybear, on 09 July 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Be careful.  In defense of Smith's use of the stones to locate buried treasure, some of the members here reminded critics of the magical powers of divining rods.  So, I am not so certain you can speak on such correlated terms for Mormons.  Obviously some of you still believe that objects can imbued with supernatural powers.

This statement seems really quite strange. Why should I be "defending" Joseph's use of a seer stone in any of the activities where it is recorded that he used one? He used a seer stone. That is history and doesn't seem to me to require "defense." As for the stones having magical powers, many used to believe that. There is evidence that Joseph believed that they had power--though I am not sure whether using "magical" is appropriate to the time (seems a modern mode of denigration, not explanation).

As for some people still believing that the stones had power, it wouldn't surprise me that they would. There has been a long history of that, and certainly one that borrowed from the idea of a urim and thummim, which they would also assume has some kind of power associated with it.

So, I have no idea why you urge me to caution. I just don't see the need.

[CASteinman]

bu11fr0g, on 09 July 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

The seer stones by description sound like they were found in ordinary ways and by appearence are generally unremarkable stones.
...Why not allow the seer stone to be displayed?  Who can see them?  Are they special after the person who they belonged to dies?

I have seen the seer stone held by the Church.  (Its been a while, there might be two, but I cannot recall that)  I think that they sometimes do display it.   It used to be displayed back in the 70's quite a bit.

As I recall, it is not entirely unremarkable in appearance.  It is chocolate brown and longer than it is wide and it has what appears to be a naturally formed hole running through the center of it -- so that it is somewhat like a small telescope.  I would say that "peep stone" is a perfect description of it, especially for that time.

It is objectively remarkable in one way for sure:  How did that hole get in there?

Edited by CASteinman, 09 July 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[CASteinman]

Brant Gardner, on 09 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

There is evidence that Joseph believed that they had power--though I am not sure whether using "magical" is appropriate to the time (seems a modern mode of denigration, not explanation).

There are people today who believe in Water Dousing.  Not just superstitious hill people.  Some even have specialized technical degrees.  The few I have seen are Church-going Christians (even claiming Mormons are not Christian).  I suspect they would laugh at the idea of it being "magic", object to it being called "magik" or otherwise some sort of "dark art" and if pressed would probably say, "I don't know, but it works" and if really pressed explain that it is some sort of science we do not know or some sort of power from God.

This seems to me to match how Joseph seems to consider things.  Well, except for the Mormons not being Christians.

Edited by CASteinman, 09 July 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[Jaybear]

Brant Gardner, on 09 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

So, I have no idea why you urge me to caution. I just don't see the need.

I would urge caution for anyone who purports to speak on behalf of others.
For someone who is usually more judicious in his choice of words, you use the terms WE and OUR quite liberally.  Perhaps I misread you.  Who is this WE that you purport to speak for when you say: "I doubt we would think much of it." ?

Quote

Why should I be "defending" Joseph's use of a seer stone in any of the activities where it is recorded that he used one? He used a seer stone. That is history and doesn't seem to me to require "defense."  

I wasn't referring to you. I said others members here have defended Smith's use of a seer stone to locate buried treasure, against the claim by critics that he defrauded an elderly victim who actually believed that stones had magical powers and paid smith to harness such powers.

As I noted in that defense, they cite divining rods, as an example of other objects that have supernatural powers, and therefore undermine the claim that Smith was engaged in fraud.

Quote

As for the stones having magical powers, many used to believe that. There is evidence that Joseph believed that they had power--though I am not sure whether using "magical" is appropriate to the time (seems a modern mode of denigration, not explanation).

What is this evidence?

Keep in mind, the fact that someone pays a seer to find treasure is solid evidence that he/she believes in seer stones.   I would not consider the fact that the person took the money from a believer to be evidence of harboring such a belief.

[Buzzard]

It seems obvious that only God has "power", but that he works through our imperfect understandings to get his message across. JS had this stone, but the gift of translation came from God, not the stone.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I think that his use of the stone declined as he matured. I hear a lot about it in New York and Ohio, but not so much in Nauvoo.

[Brant Gardner]

Jaybear, on 09 July 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Who is this WE that you purport to speak for when you say: "I doubt we would think much of it." ?

Pretty much a statistical sampling of modern American culture. We don't think a lot about a used shirt we find at Goodwill, unless there is a claim that it belonged to a celebrity and that lends it some kind of cachet. If we found a seer stone used by some unknown person, we wouldn't think much about it at all (a statistical we-pick anywhere in modern society).

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Keep in mind, the fact that someone pays a seer to find treasure is solid evidence that he/she believes in seer stones.

Are you suggesting that I believe that no one ever believed that people could find something lost/hidden with a seer stone? I have not made that statement. What I said was that I doubt that those who believed that people could do things with those stones that others could not would have used the more modern term "magic" to describe what was happening.

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I would not consider the fact that the person took the money from a believer to be evidence of harboring such a belief.

So, you are saying that there have been charlatans who have taken advantage of people? Why, of course. Are you saying that everyone who used a seer stone was a charlatan? In that case, I think there is a long history that convinces me that you are wrong. Bernie Madoff was a con man. There are honest investment advisors.

[Jaybear]

Brant Gardner, on 09 July 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Pretty much a statistical sampling of modern American culture. We don't think a lot about a used shirt we find at Goodwill, unless there is a claim that it belonged to a celebrity and that lends it some kind of cachet. If we found a seer stone used by some unknown person, we wouldn't think much about it at all (a statistical we-pick anywhere in modern society).

Thank you for clearing that up.  When referring to statistical samplings, I prefer to say most people.

Quote

[/font][/color]Are you suggesting that I believe that no one ever believed that people could find something lost/hidden with a seer stone? I have not made that statement. What I said was that I doubt that those who believed that people could do things with those stones that others could not would have used the more modern term "magic" to describe what was happening.

No.  I was suggesting that you did not believe that a common apologetic defense to the claim that Smith was engaged in fraud when purporting to find burried treasure, was that he could in fact locate burried treasure with his seer stone.

My suggestion was based on a misreading of the "we" and "our" which I presumed meant LDS apologists.

Quote

[/font][/color]
So, you are saying that there have been charlatans who have taken advantage of people? Why, of course.  

When anyone here starts a sentence with "So, are you saying", you can pretty much assume that the answer is no. That was not my point. The same applies here.

Quote

Are you saying that everyone who used a seer stone was a charlatan? In that case, I think there is a long history that convinces me that you are wrong. Bernie Madoff was a con man. There are honest investment advisors.

No. That was not my point.   No doubt there are people who used seer stones, who genuinely believed that stones had magical powers, and they have a gift to harness such powers.  The charlatan are those who take money from others, pretending to have such a stone and such a gift.  But I suspect you and I agree on that point.

[Robert F. Smith]

Jaybear, on 09 July 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Be careful.  In defense of Smith's use of the stones to locate buried treasure, some of the members here reminded critics of the magical powers of divining rods.  So, I am not so certain you can speak on such correlated terms for Mormons.  Obviously some of you still believe that objects can imbued with supernatural powers.

Since Mormon theology excludes the possibility of magic, miracle. and the supernatural, whatever use rods and stones had for Mormons (and non-Momrons like Sally Chase), or for biblical persons, must be investigated on the basis of natural phenomena -- which only seem magical to primitive humans.

There are a variety of kinds and types of seer-stones, and you can buy them online if desired.  Some are geodes, others are gorgets.  Whether they will perform as imagined is another matter, which Martin Harris discovered to his dismay.

Back in the 1970s, in the old Joseph Smith Memorial Bldg at BYU, I saw a large display of gorgets in the hallway, and back in 1991 Rick Grunder was trying to market one of Joseph Smith's seerstones online.  He offered a provenance of dubious quality, and said that it was the one Joseph gave to Philo Dibble.

[zerinus]

bu11fr0g, on 09 July 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Joseph Smith used his seer stone in a hat to translate portions of the Book of Mormon.  In Mormon Doctrine, it says that the Church still has his seer stone.
The seer stones by description sound like they were found in ordinary ways and by appearence are generally unremarkable stones.

If God can use seer stones to bring out the text of the Book of Mormon, this implies that translation and the ability of God to work within people's mindset are much more complex than I had appreciated.

Why not allow the seer stone to be displayed?  Who can see them?  Are they special after the person who they belonged to dies?

I had a religion teacher at BYU who had seen it, and gave us a description of what it looked like; but that was too long ago for me to remember the details.

[Tacenda]

zerinus, on 09 July 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I had a religion teacher at BYU who had seen it, and gave us a description of what it looked like; but that was too long ago for me to remember the details.

Did you see post #5.  There is a place to see one of the seerstones.

[KevinG]

Jaybear, on 09 July 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Be careful.  In defense of Smith's use of the stones to locate buried treasure, some of the members here reminded critics of the magical powers of divining rods.  So, I am not so certain you can speak on such correlated terms for Mormons.  Obviously some of you still believe that objects can imbued with supernatural powers.

Brazen Serpents and tablets of stone not withstanding.

[Glenn101]

Jaybear, on 09 July 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Be careful.  In defense of Smith's use of the stones to locate buried treasure, some of the members here reminded critics of the magical powers of divining rods.  So, I am not so certain you can speak on such correlated terms for Mormons.  Obviously some of you still believe that objects can imbued with supernatural powers.

There is no such thing as a supernatural event, or supernatural powers. There are events and phenomena which we do not understand, which we do not have an answer for as of yet, but they are all of natural origin.
Thus, it may be understood that a universe that is expanding faster now than it was aeons ago, which would appear to break the law of gravity with impunity, has a natural explanation somewhere. Scientists have come up with some strange theories which appear suspiciously like a supernatural explanation, i.e. dark energy. Energy that cannot be detected by our present instruments, as can gravity, but yet which can more than counteract the effects of gravity. There is a natural explanation somewhere.

By the way, God is a natural part of the universe also.

Glenn

[Jaybear]

Glenn101, on 09 July 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

There is no such thing as a supernatural event, or supernatural powers. There are events and phenomena which we do not understand, which we do not have an answer for as of yet, but they are all of natural origin.
Thus, it may be understood that a universe that is expanding faster now than it was aeons ago, which would appear to break the law of gravity with impunity, has a natural explanation somewhere. Scientists have come up with some strange theories which appear suspiciously like a supernatural explanation, i.e. dark energy. Energy that cannot be detected by our present instruments, as can gravity, but yet which can more than counteract the effects of gravity. There is a natural explanation somewhere.

By the way, God is a natural part of the universe also.

Glenn

Supernatural ...  Attributed to some force beyond our scientific understanding.

[blackstrap]

super natural = Beyond nature...outside of nature....above nature...as humans know it.

[theplains]

A Treasured Testament (July 1993 Ensign) and By the Gift and Power of God (September 1997 Ensign) have an
explanation of how the translation was done, but I haven't seen the hat depicted in any church authorized pictures
in her publications.  They do however have his other translation method depicted in art.

Regards,
Jim