Complete Honesty Versus Protection Of Faith

[rongo]

So are you saying this revelation was of man or of the devil? Because otherwise it would seem to be a nonsequitur.

I get the not infallible concept and that could be "of man", but I am not sure about the "of devil" bit though again there is that time with Hiram Page, IIRC.

What about Ehat's comments that those actually involved did not look on it as a failure?

Whitmer and Page are the only two (that I know of) who have talked much about it. Whitmer was clearly bothered by it, and Page reported thinking that it was conditional (depending on diligence and faithfulness, like D&C 84's command to build the temple in "this generation") all along. Joseph's answer is instructive, I think. Some revelations are from God, and some are of ourselves (wishful thinking, biases, prejudice, desired outcome, etc.). Some others are from the devil, but I think these are easier to discern than those from God/ourselves. I think what was conveyed by the answer was that the apparent failure in all respects for the trip is not to be blamed on God for giving them the "wrong" revelation.

Whether the actual revelation received was from God or from man (Joseph) is an interesting question. Some experiences I have had lead *me* to be open to the possibility that God did command them to go to Toronto and try to secure the copyright there (in other words, that the original revelation was from God). I personally believe David Whitmer when he says that the voice of the Lord told him to separate himself from the Church in Far West ----- although most feel that God never would have done that, given the climate at the time, David's make-up, David's stalwartness as a Book of Mormon witness throughout his life --- even while separated and believing that Joseph was a fallen true prophet, etc. -------- I can conceive of God telling David to separate himself from the Church at that time.

I think the people who are the most rigid and black/white on how revelation does/does not work are those who don't have much or any experience with it. It is never, not for President Monson or any of his predecessors, an automatic, remote-controlled experience akin to a high speed, always-on connection to God. Past success with revelation is no guarantee for current needs for it ----- each time the curtain goes up, it is a terrifying and sacred experience. Sometimes no inspiration is given, and that's all part of the plan, too.

[Libs]

I like you, too, DB.

However, your board nannying, like your ark-steadying, is ill-advised because I don't view you as someone with a very good grasp of effective interpersonal and instructional skills, though evidently you mistakenly presume that you do--even better than trained professionals who have been called of God.

Truth is, even though I lay no claim to perfection, I have been at this extensively for nearly four decades, over which time I have developed a fairly good sense for what works in a given situation and what doesn't. Accordingly, I will vary my approach depending upon what I think is best depending upon the person and the situation.

You, of course, are free to do your own thing the way you think you should. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, for what it's worth, I like what the Dalai Lama says about kindness. "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."

[wenglund]

Well, for what it's worth, I like what the Dalai Lama says about kindness. "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."

I like that too--and understand that kindness comes in many form, some less obvious than others.

I also like what Dr. Phil often says about: "doing what works, and doing what matters."

I like a lot of things.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DBMormon]

I like you, too, DB.

However, your board nannying, like your ark-steadying, is ill-advised because I don't view you as someone with a very good grasp of effective interpersonal and instructional skills, though evidently you mistakenly presume that you do--even better than trained professionals who have been called of God.

Truth is, even though I lay no claim to perfection, I have been at this extensively for nearly four decades, over which time I have developed a fairly good sense for what works in a given situation and what doesn't. Accordingly, I will vary my approach depending upon what I think is best depending upon the person and the situation.

You, of course, are free to do your own thing the way you think you should. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

OUCH!!!!

While you point out I may be incorrect in my approach and in some regards you are absolutely right, I still think empathy and understanding better than a sharp tongue... though I also agree that it is the only option at times and works sometimes when nothing else will

[ERayR]

OUCH!!!!

While you point out I may be incorrect in my approach and in some regards you are absolutely right, I still think empathy and understanding better than a sharp tongue... though I also agree that it is the only option at times and works sometimes when nothing else will

It is valid as a last resort. But who gets to decide when that time has come?

[CASteinman]

At some point along the way those that want to can now and always have been able to get the "full" story. " I will be a broken record and say" it is not the churches mission or job to be history teacher. It is the churches mission to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, his atonement, his resurrection and the saving ordinances. There is not even enough time to get that done without pandering to the desire of some for the intimate details from Joseph's bedroom.

Exactly -- I mean one arrow right through the other arrow -- dead on Bulls Eye.

[CASteinman]

After going on 5 years of reading critics of the church and obsessing over it all, it might take a long time to rid me of the bug of disbelief. It's in there pretty tightly, keeps me up at night, took my time away from everything I love, my husband, my children, my life. I'm tired of the middle way. And I'm either jumping ship or jumping in the ship. I don't know, but I can't stand it any longer. Thanks for putting up with the freak that I feel I can be. I appreciate the "tough love" of you fine people. I need to hear the truth, and that is I need to pull my head out and go to Him. He's the only way. Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

I am sorry you are facing these challenges. The following is not an accusation but rather, what I think of, as an insight into how things just work:

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." (Its also true for women I think)

Dwelling and meditating upon the negative will result in an internal change. Science has even shown that how we think can affect us physically -- our hormones, our organs and even pathways inside our brain may physically be altered or at least repurposed. Short term depressions can, if nursed and nourished become long-term, semi-permanent conditions.

This is also true for things like hope, testimony, faith and love. And it goes both ways. You can increase in hope, testimony, faith and love for "as a man thinketh so is he".

I don't know why, but I have always felt that Jesus was not talking only about material blessings when He said: "Give and it shall be given unto you. Good Measure. Pressed Down. Shaken Together. And Overflowing. For with the same Measure you Give, it shall be returned to you" (paraphrased from memory).

It is interesting also, that when He said this, He followed it with the idea that when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch. So don't follow the blind!

I am not saying this in any way as a rebuke but rather as a word of hopefulness: What you are feeling and what is happening to you is something you are largely doing to yourself. It is not really external. It is internal.

That means you have power over it and to affect it! You do not have to be subject to buffetings and being cast to and fro by the winds. You have power!

I encourage you! There is Freedom and Peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Edited July 11, 2012 by CASteinman

[Libs]

Nice post, CA.

I do believe, to a large degree, that we create our own reality, with our thoughts and feelings. We attract to us what we think and believe...and to whatever degree we allow God in our thoughts and lives, we will reap the benefits of that relationship.

[KevinG]

I would only modify that to say we create our own understanding of reality. The truth is out there! D&C 93

[why me]

Thanks DB for your honesty, you truly have a handle of what I'm going through, and thanks Cal, Why Me, ErayR, Wade, you gave me the kick in the pants I needed to go to the source above all others, because it taint no good anymore through cyberspace where btw, are the only EV friends I know of. And thanks Libs and Garden Girl for your sweet pm's. And Deborah who along with so many on here, your testimony is solid! It's helped immeasurably to spill the beans here rather than hurt alot of people I love.

Once doubt enters the system it is difficult to get rid of. Also, anti sites are addictive for many people. These sites have a way of using good persuasion strategies to influence people. I have to say that it is easy to criticize something. It is not difficult at all. And when hypothetical illustrations can be used that don't rely of facts but on wouldas, couldas, and shouldas, they can be very convincing. Bottom line is that you will need to make your own decision on this one. But...the 11 witnesses stood steadfast and that says a lot about what they experienced. Let me put it this way: you are doubting over this or that. But the witnesses never doubted what they experienced. And that says much.

[why me]

Nice post, CA.

I do believe, to a large degree, that we create our own reality, with our thoughts and feelings.

You forgot to mention experiences. Experiences help to create our reality too. The witnesses to the book of mormon had an experience that shaped their reality, thoughts and feelings for a lifetime.

[DBMormon]

the 11 witnesses stood steadfast and that says a lot about what they experienced. Let me put it this way: you are doubting over this or that. But the witnesses never doubted what they experienced. And that says much.

I think one of the strongest physical evidences of this work

[Libs]

You forgot to mention experiences. Experiences help to create our reality too. The witnesses to the book of mormon had an experience that shaped their reality, thoughts and feelings for a lifetime.

Yes. But, even our experiences can come from thoughts, feelings, emotions. If we have a strong desire to know God, I believe God often gives us an experience to draw us to him. At least, that has been my experience.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Libs

[KevinG]

One more time we do not create reality... we grow in our understanding of reality. Experience and faith are not either or they are all of the above.

[rongo]

Once doubt enters the system it is difficult to get rid of. Also, anti sites are addictive for many people. These sites have a way of using good persuasion strategies to influence people. I have to say that it is easy to criticize something. It is not difficult at all. And when hypothetical illustrations can be used that don't rely of facts but on wouldas, couldas, and shouldas, they can be very convincing.

This is the crux. When people with crippling, gnawing doubt don't get solid answers within a certain time window, the damage to their confidence and faith is often insurmountable, even when their questions and concerns *are* completely answered (and they acknowledge this). The feelings of betrayal and deception linger, even if "these particular concerns" were answered.

I don't have permission to share them, but the mission president who succeeded my second mission president provided me with some really interesting background details to the "Bremen Apostasy," a large-scale falling away involving two wards in a large city in northern Germany. I had experiences and involvement with one of the major people in that (a high councilor who had been in the stake presidency and whom my dad knew as a young bishop in the late 1960s), including a powerful personal spiritual experience with him. When he left the Church, many people followed him, but when I knew him only a year before, he still had the Spirit with him. Basically, a renegade BYU professor (Markus von Wellnitz) and some others were translating American anti-Mormon material into German, and local leaders (who had never encountered anything like it) were ill-equipped to help them with it. The caustic doubt percolated, and President Kuehne set up a conference call with Dan Peterson and others from BYU with the leaders of the trouble. All of their concerns and issues were satisfactorily explained (one of them was wowed, and said that the outcome of the conference call shattered his expectations of what could be said in response and defense ----- in a good way), but it didn't matter in the long run. The damage had been done, and the failure to adequately respond within the time window had a tragic end.

[Libs]

One more time we do not create reality... we grow in our understanding of reality. Experience and faith are not either or they are all of the above.

I agree that there is some kind of ultimate "reality" (that one word has been the subject of hundreds of books), but we can also experience realities of our own making...some very horrible realities, due to our thinking and actions. That's really what I mean about creating our own reality. It starts with thoughts and we can actually cause it to manifest. Doubt , fear, confusion can all be "realities" we create in our heads (whether or not they are based on "truth"...they are realities that we create and experience for various reasons).

[Tacenda]

Once doubt enters the system it is difficult to get rid of. Also, anti sites are addictive for many people. These sites have a way of using good persuasion strategies to influence people. I have to say that it is easy to criticize something. It is not difficult at all. And when hypothetical illustrations can be used that don't rely of facts but on wouldas, couldas, and shouldas, they can be very convincing. Bottom line is that you will need to make your own decision on this one. But...the 11 witnesses stood steadfast and that says a lot about what they experienced. Let me put it this way: you are doubting over this or that. But the witnesses never doubted what they experienced. And that says much.

You mention the 11 witnesses quite often. In your opinion did they see the plates with visionary eyes as some critics have stated happened? I guess I need to know if in fact they saw the plates with physical eyes. Thanks, Why Me! Edited July 11, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

You mention the 11 witnesses quite often. In your opinion did they see the plates with visionary eyes as some critics have stated happened? I guess I need to know if in fact they saw the plates with physical eyes. Thanks, Why Me!

Would it make it any more real. The were shown the plates, they testified they saw them. They were immersed in the spirit. It was something they never forgot nor denied. Pretty strong to me.

[DBMormon]

This is the crux. When people with crippling, gnawing doubt don't get solid answers within a certain time window, the damage to their confidence and faith is often insurmountable, even when their questions and concerns *are* completely answered (and they acknowledge this). The feelings of betrayal and deception linger, even if "these particular concerns" were answered.

I don't have permission to share them, but the mission president who succeeded my second mission president provided me with some really interesting background details to the "Bremen Apostasy," a large-scale falling away involving two wards in a large city in northern Germany. I had experiences and involvement with one of the major people in that (a high councilor who had been in the stake presidency and whom my dad knew as a young bishop in the late 1960s), including a powerful personal spiritual experience with him. When he left the Church, many people followed him, but when I knew him only a year before, he still had the Spirit with him. Basically, a renegade BYU professor (Markus von Wellnitz) and some others were translating American anti-Mormon material into German, and local leaders (who had never encountered anything like it) were ill-equipped to help them with it. The caustic doubt percolated, and President Kuehne set up a conference call with Dan Peterson and others from BYU with the leaders of the trouble. All of their concerns and issues were satisfactorily explained (one of them was wowed, and said that the outcome of the conference call shattered his expectations of what could be said in response and defense ----- in a good way), but it didn't matter in the long run. The damage had been done, and the failure to adequately respond within the time window had a tragic end.

We are not aware of a millioneth of the awesome(good and bad) experiences that occur in the church

Edited July 12, 2012 by DBMormon

[Calm]

You mention the 11 witnesses quite often. In your opinion did they see the plates with visionary eyes as some critics have stated happened? I guess I need to know if in fact they saw the plates with physical eyes. Thanks, Why Me!

Have you read Emma's account of the plates? It is my favourite one.

[Tacenda]

Have you read Emma's account of the plates? It is my favourite one.

I can recall a story where she "dusted" around them.

[Calm]

Look it up, there is more detail to it.

[volgadon]

You mention the 11 witnesses quite often. In your opinion did they see the plates with visionary eyes as some critics have stated happened? I guess I need to know if in fact they saw the plates with physical eyes. Thanks, Why Me!

Are the "physical" eyes all that superior to anything else?

[thatjimguy]

As someone who went through a year of researching all of the church's controversies before I was baptized, I can imagine it is no easy task for most to answer these questions, let alone the most basic ones they always get.

I can tell you though, that my missionaries always came through to either answer all my questions or direct me inm the right path, no matter what they were. I am grateful for that. So giving out the meatier bits can be done and digested well.

One last thing I'd like to point out is that one of the things that turned me on the the church was all of the disinformation or omission given by the opponent of LDS. This made me trust LDS sources more. That being said, I think if anyone LDS tried to not answer my questions straightforwardly, I would have had the same effect only in the opposite direction and I think I would not be the only one. So keep that in mind before you take "Milk before Meat" too far.

[wenglund]

We are not aware of a millioneth of the awesome(good and bad) experiences that occur in the church

Yes...the alleged "cover up" and the "hiding" of those experiences by the Church is staggering.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-