42 replies to this topic

[why me]

happy, on 08 July 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

The girl who was part of the event is from Lehi. She has a Facebook page with her photo and location. Her posted resignation letter has a list of overblown or outright false antimormon talking points. She seems to want attention more than anything.

What is amazing is just how many sound like clones, often repeating antimormon platitudes from the Internet. It seems that they got their new testimony lines down pat. It does prove that the internet influences a few lds who scan the antimormon sites.

[Storm Rider]

Buzz words seem to take over when minds are blank or when reasons are more complex.  We have all seen the litany of problems anti-Mormons allege; we see the same thing in Dehlin's followers.  They all seem to abandon real reasons and accept the party line of why they are where they are today.

It is evident that maintaining faith is not for the weak or even the very elect.  My mother always told me that you cannot go down the chimney without getting any soot on you.  If we think we are impervious to the machinations of Satan, then we need to think again.  If we dwell in unholy places, if we abandon the scriptures in favor of the pseudo-intellectual squalor of poor critics, bad historians, and spiritual chimeras then we may easily find ourselves in positions of doubt or absent any faith at all.

If our foundation is weak, why would we continue in paths that lead to a place where religious truth could not fill a demi-tasse?

[why me]

Storm Rider, on 08 July 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

.  We have all seen the litany of problems anti-Mormons allege; we see the same thing in Dehlin's followers.  They all seem to abandon real reasons and accept the party line of why they are where they are today.

I can spot a Dehlin follower by their way of speech and the words they use about the church. If one is familiar with what Dehlin is saying, a person can spot his followers because they often repeat his platitudes about church things or information from his recent podcasts.

I know that mormons are often called morgbots by the antimormons. But the exmormons or the Dehlinites do sound very robotic. What I have found with internet mormons is that their thoughts are diverse and varied. But internet exmormons do sound very familiar.

Edited by why me, 09 July 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Libs]

Information from his "recent podcasts" may very well be from an active church member.

What "platitudes" are you talking about?

There is actually a lot of diversity among John Dehlin's so called "followers".

[Storm Rider]

Libs, on 09 July 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Information from his "recent podcasts" may very well be from an active church member.

What "platitudes" are you talking about?

There is actually a lot of diversity among John Dehlin's so called "followers".

Hello Libs, when Dehlin had asked people to confront the young woman who briefly shared her thoughts on Dehlin, they came out in droves and their comments were often mirror images of each other. It was as if they had all picked up a script.

You should also be aware that buzz words are also found among the LDS.  Just attend a Fast & Testimony meeting and many of the testimonies you hear will be a summary of buzz words; I suspect you could repeat them verbatim yourself.  Using buzz words is not necessarily bad per se, but we need to know when we are using them and why.  Do we mean what we say or are we just jumping on the bandwagon?

When I begin to hear the same words used to explain the same thing, I begin to doubt authenticity and think that we have a case of groupthink going on.  I wish we did not see so much of it, but we all fall into at times.

[cwald]

why me, on 08 July 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

What is amazing is just how many sound like clones, often repeating antimormon platitudes from the Internet. It seems that they got their new testimony lines down pat. It does prove that the internet influences a few lds who scan the antimormon sites.


I can spot a Dehlin follower by their way of speech and the words they use about the church. If one is familiar with what Dehlin is saying, a person can spot his followers because they often repeat his platitudes about church things or information from his recent podcasts.

I know that mormons are often called morgbots by the antimormons. But the exmormons or the Dehlinites do sound very robotic. What I have found with internet mormons is that their thoughts are diverse and varied. But internet exmormons do sound very familiar.

Really?

Maybe I should  market a John Dehlin Testimony Glove.  They seem to be a pretty big hit in the LDS community.

Wow...John Dehliners sound like clones and just repeat anti-mormon platitudes?  Maybe some of you haven't been to a Fast and Testimony meeting lately?

Classic kettle meet pot.

Edited by cwald, 09 July 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[cwald]

Storm Rider, on 09 July 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

Hello Libs, when Dehlin had asked people to confront the young woman who briefly shared her thoughts on Dehlin, they came out in droves and their comments were often mirror images of each other. It was as if they had all picked up a script.

You should also be aware that buzz words are also found among the LDS.  Just attend a Fast & Testimony meeting and many of the testimonies you hear will be a summary of buzz words; I suspect you could repeat them verbatim yourself.  Using buzz words is not necessarily bad per se, but we need to know when we are using them and why.  Do we mean what we say or are we just jumping on the bandwagon?

When I begin to hear the same words used to explain the same thing, I begin to doubt authenticity and think that we have a case of groupthink going on.  I wish we did not see so much of it, but we all fall into at times.

Thank you.  Just read this post.  Thank you for making my point and being honest about it.

[Libs]

Thanks, Storm Rider.

Buzz words, I can understand.  They are short cuts for commonly held experiences.  There are a few very common issues that, many who have left the church, share as stumbling blocks, this is true.  So, I would not be surprised to hear those issues, often given, as reasons for leaving.  I don't think that's, necessarily, "jumping on the band wagon"...it's just something many in the group have had problems with, and share that in common.  You gave an example of an LDS Testimony meeting...it's completely possible that many people share a common experience in the gospel and do share certain "buzz words".  Jumping on the bandwagon is also possible, in just about any setting where people are sharing experiences.  But, I don't think it's anymore prevalent with John Dehlin's "followers" than anywhere else.  As I said, they are a pretty diverse group.

[Storm Rider]

Libs, on 09 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Thanks, Storm Rider.

Buzz words, I can understand.  They are short cuts for commonly held experiences.  There are a few very common issues that, many who have left the church, share as stumbling blocks, this is true.  So, I would not be surprised to hear those issues, often given, as reasons for leaving.  I don't think that's, necessarily, "jumping on the band wagon"...it's just something many in the group have had problems with, and share that in common.  You gave an example of an LDS Testimony meeting...it's completely possible that many people share a common experience in the gospel and do share certain "buzz words".  Jumping on the bandwagon is also possible, in just about any setting where people are sharing experiences.  But, I don't think it's anymore prevalent with John Dehlin's "followers" than anywhere else.  As I said, they are a pretty diverse group.

I think each individual's experience is important and valid.  The problem with buzz words is that they often mask the individual's experience for that experience the groups says is the experience. You allege that Dehlin's group is diverse; if that is so, they all allege very similar problems. I suspect that their reasoning is much more diverse than what I have heard or read; it does not result from the same issues; it is more complex than that.

I agree with you that they are diverse; but they speak and write as if their reasons are all very similar. Buzz words mask individuality and assume the group's position. All I am saying is that we all should be careful of buzz words; they mislead and disguise real motivations, reasoning, and experiences.  I reject them wherever I hear them and they always make me uncomfortable.  Dehlin's group, anti-Mormons, LDS, Feminists, Gay, Democrat, Republican; wherever there are strong emotions people groupthink quickly takes on its own life.  No one is wrong for using them, but we should be wise when we notice it and seek to unmask and find the individual's experience rather than listen to the parroting.

[CASteinman]

cwald, on 06 July 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Let me ask a question.  Will the church leave alone those who choose to leave?  Does it work both ways?

In my experience, yes.   I have heard from some people who left the Church that they were also unhappy with how much the Church then left them alone.  

I guess there is no winning sometimes.

[Bernard Gui]

Quote

I am incredibly happy in the Church. I converted over 35 years ago. Today, more than ever, I feel the blessings of the Lord in my life. I am blessed to have the Spirit guiding me. I feel the hand of the Lord in helping me through challenges. In short, I am the complete opposite of the group of protesters who visited Ensign Peak to denounce the Lord's Church.

So this morning, I made my own trek up Ensign Peak. I didn't go to resign my membership. Rather, I went to personally, and privately 're-sign' my membership in the Church. I took the trek up to the peak to recommit to the Lord and his Church.

I was surprised. I thought that on a weekday morning, I'd be alone. But there were dozens of people climbing the peak. Most, if not all appeared to be happy Latter Day Saints. At the Peak, some were singing LDS hymns from hymnals. It seems the Peak is an active place of faithful affirmation.

While it seems that the mass resignation is an event that does represent the frustration of some...it seemed overshadowed by the unpublicized acts of faith commitment of countless happy Mormons.

As I walked down the hill, it occurred to me that the message of Ensign Peak for me...is that there have always be those who are discontented in the Gospel. The community of Latter Day Saints will face challenges from within and without. But the faithful will always answer the call of the Lord.

Ensign Peak, still a standard to the nations.

Thank you.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 09 July 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[Bernard Gui]

CASteinman, on 09 July 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

In my experience, yes.   I have heard from some people who left the Church that they were also unhappy with how much the Church then left them alone.  

I guess there is no winning sometimes.

When inactive people in our ward ask us to leave them alone, unless
they ask to be removed from the records we will try to make some kind of contact, even if it is just
a mailed notice inviting them to a ward event. After all, they are still members of our ward and
by covenant we are responsible to look after their welfare.

The few who have asked to have their names removed are not troubled again.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 09 July 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[Scott Lloyd]

Bsix, on 06 July 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Ensign Peak has been on my mind the last few weeks. I can't explain why. It has been many, many years since I trekked there. I haven't given the spot a thought since. But, there it was in my thoughts.

Whenever I'd drive into Salt Lake City, I would glance over and look for the historic monument that sits at the top of this small peak overlooking the Salt Lake Valley. It looks like hardly more than a dot from the I-15 freeway. More than once, I recounted the history of Ensign Peak and told my family that we needed to visit.

Ensign Peak is a small bluff overlooking the Salt Lake Valley. It is just over a mile high in elevation. Two days after the Pioneers arrived in the Valley; it was climbed by Brigham Young and others to scout out the valley. Moved at the view, the Peak fulfilled prophetic vision and meaning. In years to come, it is said to be a place of temple endowments, visions, and a symbol of the refuge of the Lord. At the valley floor base of this mountain the Saints erected the Salt Lake Temple. Read more: "A Banner is Unfurled: Mormonism's Ensign Peak."
Dialogue, Journal of Mormon Thought.

Imagine my surprise when this week, Ensign Peak was in the news. It was the location of one of those semi-regular 'mass resignations' from the LDS Church organized by those disillusioned and critical of the LDS Church.

Salt Lake Tribune:Mormon group quits LDS Church en masse


The mass resignation was attended by all the usual antiMormon fanfare and media hype. Reportedly, about 120 people attended the event with small group actually delivering their letters of resignation. They carried protest signs, talked the LDS Church down, and declared their "freedom."

Good for them. I don't think anyone should be a member of the Church that doesn't agree with the doctrines and policies. If they aren't happy, I think it is great that they continue their journey somewhere else. I wish these folks peace and happiness. I hope they can deal with whatever angst and hatred many seem to harbor.

The coincidence of Ensign Peak touching my heart lately and it being the place of antiMormon protest struck me as an opportunity to take care of something that I have been pondering lately.

I am incredibly happy in the Church. I converted over 35 years ago. Today, more than ever, I feel the blessings of the Lord in my life. I am blessed to have the Spirit guiding me. I feel the hand of the Lord in helping me through challenges. In short, I am the complete opposite of the group of protesters who visited Ensign Peak to denounce the Lord's Church.

So this morning, I made my own trek up Ensign Peak. I didn't go to resign my membership. Rather, I went to personally, and privately 're-sign' my membership in the Church. I took the trek up to the peak to recommit to the Lord and his Church.

I was surprised. I thought that on a weekday morning, I'd be alone. But there were dozens of people climbing the peak. Most, if not all appeared to be happy Latter Day Saints. At the Peak, some were singing LDS hymns from hymnals. It seems the Peak is an active place of faithful affirmation.

While it seems that the mass resignation is an event that does represent the frustration of some...it seemed overshadowed by the unpublicized acts of faith commitment of countless happy Mormons.

As I walked down the hill, it occurred to me that the message of Ensign Peak for me...is that there have always be those who are discontented in the Gospel. The community of Latter Day Saints will face challenges from within and without. But the faithful will always answer the call of the Lord.

Ensign Peak, still a standard to the nations.

For what it's worth, here is a website that gives links to several articles I wrote back in the '90s about Ensign Peak and improvements thereto. I especially recommend the first link on the list, which is to a report of President Hinckley's dedication of the Ensign Peak Nature Trail improvements.

And I will say here that, regardless of it being a public park, I consider it gratuitous and egregiously inflammatory for apostates to stage a public mass resignation from the Church on Ensign Peak, given its background and importance to the Latter-day Saints and the history of the Church,

A final note: Bsix's OP, last I checked, had 22 rep points. I don't think I've ever seen a post on this board that had nearly that many. Go Bsix!

Edited by Scott Lloyd, 09 July 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[calmoriah]

why me, on 08 July 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

I can spot a Dehlin follower by their way of speech and the words they use about the church. If one is familiar with what Dehlin is saying, a person can spot his followers because they often repeat his platitudes about church things or information from his recent podcasts.

I know that mormons are often called morgbots by the antimormons. But the exmormons or the Dehlinites do sound very robotic. What I have found with internet mormons is that their thoughts are diverse and varied. But internet exmormons do sound very familiar.

Every community develops its own dialect, it is one way to increase a sense of unity and belonging and even exclusion.

[calmoriah]

cwald, on 09 July 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Testimony Glove.  They seem to be a pretty big hit in the LDS community.

Never heard of them and I worked in a church bookstore.  What are they?

[calmoriah]

Storm Rider, on 09 July 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I think each individual's experience is important and valid.  The problem with buzz words is that they often mask the individual's experience for that experience the groups says is the experience. You allege that Dehlin's group is diverse; if that is so, they all allege very similar problems. I suspect that their reasoning is much more diverse than what I have heard or read; it does not result from the same issues; it is more complex than that.

I agree with you that they are diverse; but they speak and write as if their reasons are all very similar. Buzz words mask individuality and assume the group's position. All I am saying is that we all should be careful of buzz words; they mislead and disguise real motivations, reasoning, and experiences.  I reject them wherever I hear them and they always make me uncomfortable.  Dehlin's group, anti-Mormons, LDS, Feminists, Gay, Democrat, Republican; wherever there are strong emotions people groupthink quickly takes on its own life.  No one is wrong for using them, but we should be wise when we notice it and seek to unmask and find the individual's experience rather than listen to the parroting.

This gets back to the conflict Rosalynde? Welch was speaking of in her article on Dehlin's group, the two contradictory goals....

[Buzzard]

Scott Lloyd, on 09 July 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

For what it's worth, here is a website that gives links to several articles I wrote back in the '90s about Ensign Peak and improvements thereto. I especially recommend the first link on the list, which is to a report of President Hinckley's dedication of the Ensign Peak Nature Trail improvements.

And I will say here that, regardless of it being a public park, I consider it gratuitous and egregiously inflammatory for apostates to stage a public mass resignation from the Church on Ensign Peak, given its background and importance to the Latter-day Saints and the history of the Church,

A final note: Bsix's OP, last I checked, had 22 rep points. I don't think I've ever seen a post on this board that had nearly that many. Go Bsix!

IMHO, if they wouldn't get arrested for trespassing, they would have preferred to do it in the lobby of the Church Office Building, or even better, on Temple Square. But I admit I am speculating. Did any of them say exactly why they chose Ensign Peak?

[sjdawg]

I don't understand the public resignation.   I'm a non-believer but I just can't wrap my head around the need/desire for this type of public action.   I'm the complete opposite.   I like to go unnoticed. I don't discuss Mormonism or religion anywhere besides this website.  I won't participate in discussions on Facebook or other public forums.

My mother is already upset that I have left the Faith she loves.   Why would I want to hurt her more by making a public spectacle of it?    I don't understand the point of this public demonstration.  Can someone explain it to me?

Edited by sjdawg, 09 July 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

I don't discuss Mormonism or religion anywhere besides this website.

Why do you discuss it here?  Just curious.

[sjdawg]

calmoriah, on 09 July 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Why do you discuss it here?  Just curious.

A few reasons.  

1.  It is a forum where I can discuss openly without hurting family/friends with the debate.   I don't want to convince anyone to leave the Church if it is providing them with happiness. This is a forum where debate is available and encouraged so I don't feel like I need to keep my opinons to myself.   I don't think my family is open to being swayed by my opinions but at the same time the mere discussion of my issues seems to offend them.

2.  I remain interested in the LDS Faith and like to keep up on current events/topics.

3.  I remain open to the idea I am wrong about some/all things. (In fact I would go so far as to say I know I am wrong about some things.   I'm not sure which things those are right now but logic tells me that at least some of the information I have based my opinions on is incorrect or poorly interpreted)

Edited by sjdawg, 09 July 2012 - 09:34 AM.