65 replies to this topic

[Craig Paxton]

In its original form Joseph Smith Stated that he saw both Adam and Michael

'The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial kingdom  of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell,— I saw the transcendant beauty of the gate that enters, through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire, also the blasing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son,— I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold— I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept,'
(Joseph Smith Papers website- I maintain original spelling)

Note how Joseph said that he saw “— saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept” …as separate individual beings…note this supposedly happened long before joseph formed the teaching that they were one and the same person.

So the problem presents itselfthus...he had already earlier taught that they were the same person yet here he says they were seperate individuals and then again later some 4 years he again teaches that Adam was Michael so when this “revelation” was edited for publication…the error was caught and changed to reflects what Joseph was  then teaching…

From the D&C Section 137

' 1The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
2I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
3Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.
4I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;'
(LDS.org online scriptures)

Note…in the official D&C …Michael mysteriously disappears…poof…no asterisk, no mention of any kind…another LDS editing mystery I guess to make Joseph's teachings uniform with his revelation claims.

Edited by Craig Paxton, 02 July 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[John Ping Pong]

It is certainly a case of creative editing.

Making the situation more interesting is that Section 137 is dated January 21, 1836.

But references to Adam being Michael may be found in Section 27:11 (dated to August of 1830) and Section 107:54 (dated to March 28, 1835); both occurring before the revelation part of which came to be canonized in Section 137.

[SamIam]

Craig Paxton, on 02 July 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

In its original form Joseph Smith Stated that he saw both Adam and Michael

'The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial kingdom  of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell,— I saw the transcendant beauty of the gate that enters, through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire, also the blasing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son,— I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold— I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept,'
(Joseph Smith Papers website- I maintain original spelling)

Note how Joseph said that he saw “— saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept” …as separate individual beings…note this supposedly happened long before joseph formed the teaching that they were one and the same person.

So the problem presents itselfthus...he had already earlier taught that they were the same person yet here he says they were seperate individuals and then again later some 4 years he again teaches that Adam was Michael so when this “revelation” was edited for publication…the error was caught and changed to reflects what Joseph was  then teaching…

From the D&C Section 137

' 1The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
2I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
3Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.
4I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;'
(LDS.org online scriptures)

Note…in the official D&C …Michael mysteriously disappears…poof…no asterisk, no mention of any kind…another LDS editing mystery I guess to make Joseph's teachings uniform with his revelation claims.

The answer in the form of a question?

What was the title often attributed to Joseph Smith's father?

[Mark Beesley]

Craig Paxton, on 02 July 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

(Joseph Smith Papers website- I maintain original spelling)

How difficult would it be for you to provide the link when you quote an online source?
Thanks.

[Craig Paxton]

Sorry on my iPhone now so kinda difficult. But you can find it in the history of the church just do a search for 21 January 1836 then find that date and you'll see it. But I did a cleaned up cut and paste

[Darren10]

Mark Beesley, on 02 July 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

How difficult would it be for you to provide the link when you quote an online source?

Agreed.

Craig;

I searched the Joseph Smith Paper's website and cannot find your citation. Where exactly did you find it?

[Darren10]

Craig Paxton, on 02 July 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Sorry on my iPhone now so kinda difficult. But you can find it in the history of the church just do a search for 21 January 1836 then find that date and you'll see it. But I did a cleaned up cut and paste

So your quote has nothing to do with the Joesph Smith Paper's website?

[Darren10]

Craig;

Here's History of the Church. How do I do a search by date?

I just did a Bing search on "history of the church: 21 January 1836". What, exactly, am I looking for?

[volgadon]

You are looking for this http://josephsmithpa...s=alvin&sm=next

[Darren10]

I Binged your entire quote and from there I linked to HERE. That's where I learned that D&C Section 137 can be found in History of the Church, 2:380–81. I went there via the same History ofthe Church I previously linked and read those pages. Here's the relevant portion which I highlighted in bold:

Quote

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Fathers Adam and Abraham, and my father and mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and marvelled as that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set His hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

http://byustudies2.b...c/hcpgs/hc.aspx

(Click on Volume 2 and then on "Reconciliation of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles-Pentecostal Times in Kirtland." to get to the correct pages)

[Darren10]

Volgadon;

Aha!!! Thanks.

[Darren10]

Was that an official Joseph Smith teaching or an script error made by Joseph Smith?

[calmoriah]

Darren10, on 02 July 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Was that an official Joseph Smith teaching or an script error made by Joseph Smith?

I think that is the question....

[HiJolly]

volgadon, on 02 July 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

You are looking for this http://josephsmithpa...s=alvin&sm=next

That is SO COOL how we can do that. Thank you, whoever you are at the Church.

HiJolly

[Darren10]

Come to think of it, Joseph Smith said, "I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold— I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept". Craig presents this as if it were one scene in his vision. What if it were more than one? In other words, could Joseph have seen Adam, and then Abraham, and then, Michael, and then his father, and then his mother, and then Alvin. Or could it have been a scene of Adam, than (Adam having left the scene) of Abraham and Michael (and perhaps his family members) together? Also, notice the title "father: "Adam" - Father of all mankind; "Abraham" - Father of our covenants; than of Joseph Smith's own "father". Interesting.

Of course, none of this explains the absence of Michael in D&C. Perhaps Joseph Smith knew Adam as both our first mortal father and as Michael and thus wrote both names. it doesn't necessarily mean that he saw two separate beings which should be one.

[Darren10]

calmoriah, on 02 July 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I think that is the question....

If there's no evidence of Joseph Smith actually preaching that he saw *both* Adam and Michael together in a vision, than I'm content to conclude that this was a scribal error on his part.

Edited by Darren10, 02 July 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Darren10]

Here's from FARMS:

Quote

Joseph tended to dictate his writings and even personal letters. Despite being in his "journal," the text is not something he produced himself, but something that a new scribe and member recorded.

Also this:

Quote

Matthew Brown noted that the original text of this revelation may help explain what happened: “[Warren] Parrish’s transcription of [Joseph Smith’s] vision [in Joseph Smith’s journal dated 21 January 1836] seems to differentiate Adam and the archangel Michael as two separate individuals. Yet [Joseph Smith] identified Michael as Adam at least a year earlier and made the same identification four years later (Oliver Cowdery, Kirtland, OH, to John Whitmer, [Liberty, MO], 1 January 1834, in Cowdery, Letterbook, 15; Revelation, ca. August 1830, in Doctrine and Covenants 50:2, 1835 ed. [D&C 27:11]; Richards, “Pocket Companion,” 74–75; Robert B. Thompson, sermon notes, 5 October 1840, [Joseph Smith] Collection, [Church History Library])” (Dean C. Jessee, Mark Ashurst-McGee, and Richard L. Jensen, eds., The Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, Volume 1: 1832–1839 [Salt Lake City: The Church Historian’s Press, 2008], 167–68, n. 319). The text recorded by Warren Parrish may provide a clue about its incorrect content. It reads: “I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin” (ibid., 167–68). The “Mi” of “Michael” and the word “my” that follows almost immediately after it have the exact same sound. The structures within the sentence are also identical (“and Mi . . . and my”). It seems, therefore, that Warren Parrish (a relatively recent convert [20 May 1833] and newly-assigned scribe for the Prophet [29 October 1835]) may have recorded a modified dittography based upon what he heard Joseph Smith say.

Interesting.

http://en.fairmormon...ated_in_D&C_137

[Craig Paxton]

volgadon, on 02 July 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

You are looking for this http://josephsmithpa...s=alvin&sm=next

Yes thanks.

[Craig Paxton]

And I saw Darren10 AND Craig AND Volgadon AND Hijolly AND Calmoriha. Yes....clearly I'm only talking about seeing one person

[wenglund]

SamIam, on 02 July 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

The answer in the form of a question?

What was the title often attributed to Joseph Smith's father?

For those more than a bit deaf of hearing or blind of sight, this bears repeating.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-