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RLBaty

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53 posts in this topic

I am new to this venue.

I just ran across a reference from a Mormon readers' comment from a recent news article. I think he said something about his being the "lion's mouth".

I have in recent days been engaged in an effort to discuss certain matters with Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

I also have my own YAHOO! discussion group which I think is preferable.

I'm currently most interested in getting more bonafide Mormons to participate in a poll regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims I found on an "official" Mormon website.

So far only 5 have participated.

Folks are welcome to requite my love and make their appearance in my YAHOO! group.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

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What is the purpose of the poll?

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What is the purpose of the poll?

There are a variety of utilitarian purposes that the poll might serve.

To each his own.

For myself, the poll developed as a result of observations and experience with Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

Would you, whoever you are, be willing to complete the poll, for the public record, by providing your simple "yes" or "no", indicating whether or not you believe the claims to be true, responses to the 5 simple, factual, historical claims taken from an "official" Mormon website?

I notice that you, whoever you are, have over 25,000 posts here.

Do you ever identify yourself?

The reason I ask is because one of the Senior Mormon apologists who has appeared on The Christian Post from time to time has indicated that one may not be open and honest in his/her dealings if he/she is "hiding" behind anonymity.

I think it is a good principle to work from.

Dealing with anonymous sorts can be problematic.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

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I choose to be anonymous because my daughter who has severe anxiety has asked me to as she has heard of horror stories of what happens at times when internet stalkers track down their targets.

Besides which since I am only known by my online name online, very, very few (and only those who knew me first as "Cal") online would recognize my real name. I would be more "anonymous" if I used my birth/married name than if I use the name by which I am known by the online community....which name is as real to me and my friends online as my offline name (which is most often just a nickname too after all and not the one on official documents or medical charts) is to me and my friends offline. In fact, I can always tell who doesn't know me by their use of my full name, lol.

And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't add any credibility to my claims, :).

As to the poll, I make it a habit not to participate generally and if I do, I want to know precisely what the information is going to be used for....unless it is done by academics for academic research purposes and then out of appreciation for those who participated when I did my research for university eons ago, I do participate for them....but there is nothing academic I can see about your poll...sorry.

I saw the poll if it is the one on plural marriage. Seems pretty worthless in terms of content, honestly.

PS: lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website, it is the official website of the LDS Church.

Edited by calmoriah
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I choose to be anonymous because...

And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't add any credibility to my claims, :).

I saw the poll if it is the one on plural marriage. Seems pretty worthless in terms of content, honestly.

PS: lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website, it is the official website of the LDS Church.

Thanks for that reply.

I deal with anonymous correspondents on a case by case basis.

Anonymity has advantages and disadvantages.

It's not about a name, though a name is part of leveling the playing field depending upon the extent to which one might be interested in open, honest chat about matters of mutual interest.

For instance, you complain about my poll seeming "pretty worthless".

Nice play!

We can deal with our differing opinions about the value of the poll after other matters are dealt with; if they ever are.

You seem inclined to NOT participate in the poll or a discussion of its relevance to important, public, historical issues.

I'll try to make that LDS/Mormon distinction on the "officiality" of the site.

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Having now read some of your interchanges with posters at the yahoo group, I am not interested in either poll for any reason or in particular continuing a conversation with you as too much personal stuff going on. If you do decide to stick around here, this may change depending on if your content is different here then there.

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Having now read some of your interchanges with posters at the yahoo group, I am not interested in either poll for any reason or in particular continuing a conversation with you as too much personal stuff going on. If you do decide to stick around here, this may change depending on if your content is different here then there.

Thanks for the notice, though I find it all too typical of those wanting to find a reason to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims taken from an "official" LDS Church website.

As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages and you've demonstrated some of them in your antics over these simple matters.

Maybe others will take part in the poll and other such matters in which we might share a mutual interest in discussing; maybe not.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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And thus my expectations are fulfilled.....

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How have I evaded anything? I gave you specific answers to what you've asked on this board.

I am not "anonymous" in the sense that I am trying to avoid responsibility for what I've said or ever said anywhere on the internet. People can find all the relevant info they like about me simply by googling this name. If they googled my married or birth name, they wouldn't find out anything about me. That name is the one much more "anonymous" than this one.

I turned down the opportunity to "requite [your] love" by responding to your poll that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't even linked to, btw). Not evading there. Came right out and said "no".

add-on: did a bit more reading....it would seem the ultimate purpose of the poll is to see how many LDS agree with Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or not.

Edited by calmoriah
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How have I evaded anything?

I gave you specific answers to what you've asked on this board.

I turned down the opportunity to "requite [your] love" by responding to your poll that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't even linked to, btw). Not evading there. Came right out and said "no".

add-on: it would seem the ultimate purpose of the poll is to see how many LDS agree with Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or not.

I made reference to my poll, and you indicated that you were familiar with the poll.

You then evading providing simple answers of "yes" or "no" regarding what you, a Mormon, believe regarding those important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS church website.

The ultimate purpose of the poll, as far as I am concerned, is NOT as you allege, but we can discuss such things, if there is a mutual interest, at a more appropriate time. As I stated, there are a number of utilitarian purposes as to the poll, and my brief experience here is fulfilling one or more of them even while those here have been declining to participate. It doesn't have to be posted here for folks here to know exactly what the 5 claims are and answer "yes" and/or "no".

If you think it would help to post the poll here, I would certainly oblige, or, since it is quite public, anyone else out there could post it here.

I wasn't sure that it would be appropriate, but I'll post it if you wish; or you or anyone else can post it; or anything else for that matter.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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There are a variety of utilitarian purposes that the poll might serve.

To each his own.

For myself, the poll developed as a result of observations and experience with Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

Would you, whoever you are, be willing to complete the poll, for the public record, by providing your simple "yes" or "no", indicating whether or not you believe the claims to be true, responses to the 5 simple, factual, historical claims taken from an "official" Mormon website?

I notice that you, whoever you are, have over 25,000 posts here.

Do you ever identify yourself?

The reason I ask is because one of the Senior Mormon apologists who has appeared on The Christian Post from time to time has indicated that one may not be open and honest in his/her dealings if he/she is "hiding" behind anonymity.

I think it is a good principle to work from.

Dealing with anonymous sorts can be problematic.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...it leaves no room for dialog.
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Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...it leaves no room for dialog.

And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

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Thanks for the notice, though I find it all too typical of those wanting to find a reason to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims taken from an "official" LDS Church website.

As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages and you've demonstrated some of them in your antics over these simple matters.

Maybe others will take part in the poll and other such matters in which we might share a mutual interest in discussing; maybe not.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

"Antic" She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site. 6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.
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And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

Great point.
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Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...it leaves no room for dialog.

I am more than willing, even begging, for open,honest dialog with bonafide Mormons regarding these important public issues.

I have seen those Mormons I have had direct contact with all over the Internet proposing that I should "ask a Mormon" about what they believe, use "official" LDS church websites and avoid anti-Mormon sites.

And so I have, and so it has been interesting to watch the lengths to which my Mormon contacts have gone to evade simply first answering "yes" and/or "no" to what they believe about those official LDS church claims that have caught my attention.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the claims from its website!

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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"Antic" She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site. 6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.

Not at all.

I am NOT being demanding.

I am giving bonafide Mormons a chance to simply answer "yes" and/or "no" regarding whether or not they believe certain, specific, important, historic claims on their official LDS church website.

Among other things, it provides a platform upon which to pursue a discussion of important public issues where there may be mutual interest.

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the claims from its website!

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

I never claimed they were.

I haven't even read them and don't have plans to. I have no opinion on your poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it. You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways you don't like. No offense meant, but my life's got enough drama without going out and looking for it.

I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

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@RLBaty:

Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

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I have no opinion on your poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it.

You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways you don't like.

I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with "yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my poll questions.

That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial references.

I played their game and beat them at it.

They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue. Just one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

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@RLBaty:

Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

Not at all.

The list is publicly viewable.

Its archives are searchable.

And you can even post a note there without joining the list.

Simply address and e-mail to: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

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You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with "yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my poll questions.

That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial references.

I played their game and beat them at it.

They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue. Just one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

Good luck with the righteous indignation response. I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be the first! Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear. :D

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My answer is "yes" to 2-5. To 1 it is: more likely that Joseph Smith read the parts of the bible about polygamous marriages, and the counsel in the Book of Mormon condemning it and asked God about the apparent discrepancy, to which Heavenly Father revealed that he (Joseph Smith) was one called to do it --- therefore making it approved. So if you are asking whether Heavenly Father revealed it in a bolt of lightning out of the blue, I'm inclined to think not. But if you mean that He inspired Joseph both about the principle and His command to JS to live it, my answer would be "yes". (I think it will likely turn out that the polyandrous sealings that Joseph Smith participated in were misunderstandings of the law -- not even the law of polygamy but the law of sealings ----, one that required specific revelation in the 1880's to wilford woodruff to correct, that people were supposed to be sealed to spouses and parents and children, not to church leaders.)

Edited by rpn
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Good luck with the righteous indignation response. I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be the first! Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear. :D

I will note your efforts and, unless I am mistaken, your refusal to simply answer "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic, factual claims posted to the official LDS Church website.

It is my opinion that the claims are so framed such that a Mormon, or anyone else, can answer "yes" and/or "no" to each claim and that Mormons in particular have a position regarding each (e.g., either "yes" and/or "no").

As I have noted, one of the utilitarian purposes of the poll is to observe the lengths Mormons will go to in order to evade simply "giving an answer" on these matters; matters important enough to have been presented as part of the official LDS Church history.

Thanks for the demonstration.

Now, is there anyone else here that wishes to participate; maybe even "give an answer"?

Sincerely,

Robert Baty

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

P.S. Speakin of all that righteous indignation stuff, have you noted Sergio's Mormon claims:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)

> Time/Date: 6:45 PM on February 10, 2012

>

> My authority came from God who

> gave authority to Jesus,

> to Peter,

> to Joseph Smith,

> and finally to me.

>

> This is called authority line.

and this:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)

> Time/Date: 10:01 AM on February 17, 2012

>

> I win.

> I have authority.

> I have authority line, and

> you have not.

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