36 replies to this topic

[blooit]

As always, it is important to me to differentiate between Mormon culture and The Church of Jesus Christ. The church remains true, even when the culture surrounding it takes some pretty serious detours.

I wonder if Mormon culture, particularly in the inter-mountain area, is missing the boat a bit when it comes to what constitutes righteousness. We seem to place great emphasis on "outward" signs of righteousness like:

• modesty
  
• language
  
• the word of wisdom
  
• hometeaching numbers

but sometimes place less emphasis on more "inward" signs of righteousness like:

• kindness
  
• charity
  
• anonymous service
  
• a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

I think (obviously) more inward indicators of righteousness are by nature less apparent, but it really concerns me when I see (in my self or others), those who would never think of swearing, but will smear the names of others with gossip; those who will not even speak to someone who smokes, but will treat their family with contempt and cruelty; or those who walk away when someone tells a questionable joke or openly rebuke them, but will not stop and help a person in need.

God clearly gave us the litmus test of discipleship in John 13:


³⁴ A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
³⁵ By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

As I've gotten older, I've become much more tolerant of people's outward behaviors and much more concerned with their "love one to another." Maybe I'm headed for trouble, but I'd much rather associate with a swearing, drinking friend who has love and kindness in their heart, than the "righteous" ward gossip. I wonder if we are not headed for similar trouble as the pharisees who sought after the praise of men and recognition for their "righteousness."

[Kerry A. Shirts]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

As always, it is important to me to differentiate between Mormon culture and The Church of Jesus Christ. The church remains true, even when the culture surrounding it takes some pretty serious detours.

I wonder if Mormon culture, particularly in the inter-mountain area, is missing the boat a bit when it comes to what constitutes righteousness. We seem to place great emphasis on "outward" signs of righteousness like:

• modesty
  
• language
  
• the word of wisdom
  
• hometeaching numbers

but sometimes place less emphasis on more "inward" signs of righteousness like:

• kindness
  
• charity
  
• anonymous service
  
• a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

I think (obviously) more inward indicators of righteousness are by nature less apparent, but it really concerns me when I see (in my self or others), those who would never think of swearing, but will smear the names of others with gossip; those who will not even speak to someone who smokes, but will treat their family with contempt and cruelty; or those who walk away when someone tells a questionable joke or openly rebuke them, but will not stop and help a person in need.

God clearly gave us the litmus test of discipleship in John 13:


³⁴ A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
³⁵ By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

As I've gotten older, I've become much more tolerant of people's outward behaviors and much more concerned with their "love one to another." Maybe I'm headed for trouble, but I'd much rather associate with a swearing, drinking friend who has love and kindness in their heart, than the "righteous" ward gossip. I wonder if we are not headed for similar trouble as the pharisees who sought after the praise of men and recognition for their "righteousness."

Careful here........ Jesus did the same thing hanging out with the wrong crowds and justifying himself for it, and look what they did to him......

[thesometimesaint]

Yes Jesus hung out with the "wrong type" of people. He also called them to repentance, and encouraged them to do better.

[blooit]

thesometimesaint, on 01 July 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Yes Jesus hung out with the "wrong type" of people. He also called them to repentance, and encouraged them to do better.

How do you think he went about this? I mean generally, what was his approach to calling them to repentance? And how much of his behavior was in his role as Savior, and how much was an example of how we all should behave?

[CV75]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Maybe I'm headed for trouble

I think anyone is headed for trouble if he is a respecter of persons of any kind. Those who sin inwardly (if they can be identified) need as much fellowship with a saint as those who sin outwardly.

[CV75]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

How do you think he went about this? I mean generally, what was his approach to calling them to repentance? And how much of his behavior was in his role as Savior, and how much was an example of how we all should behave?

I think His underlying approach was to give them an opportunity to convert that they might be healed (2 Nephi 16:10, 3 Nephi 9:13).

[CV75]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

And how much of his behavior was in his role as Savior, and how much was an example of how we all should behave?

Maybe I'm missing something because I think both roles are identical--how would you differentiate them?

[yootaw]

For me, the answer is yes. I think that our culture focuses much to strongly on outward appearances.

[Buzzard]

Let's see..
Modesty in dress and speech is an outward sign of our resolve to live the law of chasity.
Language-I'm assuming you mean swearing-is an outward sign of our respect for deity and ability to bridle our emotions.
The Word of Wisdom is an outward sign of our following the admonition to consider our bodies as temples for our eternal spirits.
Home Teaching isn't about the numbers, it's about watching out for, showing love to, and being willing to help our friends and neighbors. I do agree that this one often does devolve into a numbers thing.
I seem to remember that when Christ was lambasting the Pharisees and others for not obeying the inward law, which is of even greater importance, he made a point of saying that the external laws needed to be obeyed as well.
For that matter, can a member parading around her yard in a bikini who swears, drinks and has not done her (visiting) teaching in months claim to be living the inward law? I'd like to meet the one that does.
(Matthew 23:23, for those keeping score at home: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment , mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone".)

Edited by Buzzard, 01 July 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[CASteinman]

I can't speak about the Central Utah area, I never lived there long enough to see any of these issues that I hear about.  But I like the Mormon Culture overall.  I prefer it to ... say... biker culture.  Or the political culture inside the DC beltway.    Even when the Mormon Culture is shallow, I think its better than more worldly things.  

Incidentally, I have noticed the same complaints about areas of Southern Baptists.  Yet, although such areas do not like me, overall, I like those cultures too.

[calmoriah]

Quote

• modesty
  
• language
  
• the word of wisdom
  
• hometeaching numbers

but sometimes place less emphasis on more "inward" signs of righteousness like:

• kindness
  
• charity
  
• anonymous service
  
• a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

Besides the last item of your bottom list, all behaviours you have listed are "outward" signs of righteousness so I am confused by your premise.

[BCSpace]

Quote

I wonder if Mormon culture, particularly in the inter-mountain area, is missing the boat a bit when it comes to what constitutes righteousness. We seem to place great emphasis on "outward" signs of righteousness like:

• modesty
  
• language
  
• the word of wisdom
  
• hometeaching numbers

but sometimes place less emphasis on more "inward" signs of righteousness like:

• kindness
  
• charity
  
• anonymous service
  
• a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

Imho, it's almost impossible to overemphasize any of those things and to minimize one group at the expense of the other is sin.  But at the same time I would agree there is a spirit of the law which, for example, does not care if we home taught 12 times in the year vs. 10 times, but would be very pleased with.14 times if it resulted in someone's reactivation.

[blooit]

CV75, on 01 July 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Maybe I'm missing something because I think both roles are identical--how would you differentiate them?

For example, you will never hear me say, "I am the light of the world." While we should be like Christ, there are some things that he could do as Savior that we cannot do.

[DH]

It depends on what you mean by "outward signs of righteousness." If people do righteous things "to be seen of men," then they aren't doing them for the right reasons. But "inward" things like feeling charitable don't do a whole lot of good unless you express them with real-life actions that actually help someone. LDS people, like everybody else, are a mixed bag--sometimes we do things for the wrong reasons, and sometimes we do them for the right reasons.

Edited by DH, 01 July 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[blooit]

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Besides the last item of your bottom list, all behaviours you have listed are "outward" signs of righteousness so I am confused by your premise.

Everything is both inward and outward, and everything is both spiritual and temporal at some level. Thats why I use quotes and talked about "more inward." I regularly see adults refuse to associate with people because they've heard them use a bad word, or teach their teens to avoid "bad influences," but have no problem talking to someone who gossips in the worst way or is cruel to others. I think this is a mistake. As an example, I think kindness is a greater indicator of righteousness than almost anything else. Perhaps we should emphasize this more.

[blooit]

DH, on 01 July 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

It depends on what you mean by "outward signs of righteousness." If people do righteous things "to be seen of men," then they aren't doing them for the right reasons. But "inward" things like feeling charitable don't do a whole lot of good unless you express them with real-life actions that actually help someone. LDS people, like everybody else, are a mixed bag--sometimes we do things for the wrong reasons, and sometimes we do them for the right reasons.

Well... sure. But please be tolerant of the anthropologist in me. We look for cultural norms - and tendencies. What I am arguing is that mormon culture has a tendency to emphasize things like swearing and smoking and drinking and dress over more important principles like kindness, charity, and love.

Another example, if I may. The concept of "marry a return missionary" is a constant theme in our culture. Unfortunately there are some pretty lousy human beings who go on missions. I hope I teach my daughters to marry someone who honors and serves God and loves his fellow man. Being an RM is a great bonus, but that check box misses a few more important ones IMHO.

[CV75]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

For example, you will never hear me say, "I am the light of the world." While we should be like Christ, there are some things that he could do as Savior that we cannot do.

You may not say that, but Jesus informed His faithful followers that they are the light of the world, and even saviors (small "s"). The one thing He did that we cannot do is take upon Himself and be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Everything else it seems he invited us to assist with, from the Creation onward. We cannot do any worthy thing independent of Him, but in following Him we can be lights and saviors that lead others to follow Him. To do this well, we love all God's children, and as guided by the Spirit reach out to them no matter what they are doing.

[CV75]

blooit, on 01 July 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

our culture

Would you say this is an accurate description of "Mormon culture"?

http://en.wikipedia..../Mormon_culture

[BlueDreams]

I generally agree...though I've seen the effects that say, not following the WoW can do, I find myself often prioritizing behaviors. So to me, it's less important how  often they cuss and more important about what other problems they're struggling with. I assume certain behaviors will change as they are changed. Maybe its just that I used to cuss like a sailor. During that time, The outward behavior was really the least of my spiritual problems.

With luv,
BD

[wenglund]

Unlike some, I don't see myself as in position to judge, in whole or in part, those who supposedly make up the so-called Mormon culture. Nor do I see it as my role to do so as an individual member. I can only speak for myself and of myself, and look inward to see if, or the degree to which, I may be guilty of the stated charge, and work to correct the possible deficiency.

For me to do otherwise, I would think myself guilty of commiting the very thing about which judgment is being sought in this thread.

But that may just be me. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-