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Bill Hamblin

Dehlin'S Methodology?

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It would appear that the new limitations the Church put on inappropriate inputting and accessing of information are working. She won't be news without new material to work with.

I suppose, in a sense, she was banned from the thread.

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I suppose, in a sense, she was banned from the thread.

Along with her sock puppets, lol.

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Wow! I just finished reading her post.

I recommend Rosalynde Welch's Patheos Essay as highly as anything I've read to date concerning The Dehlinite Movement.

Excellently done.

I am inclined to look at John Dehlin as the William Law of this time without the credentials of having served in the First Presidency. He does wield a claim of having a GA protector.

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Treehugger you can take it to pm's or ask will if he wants to start a thread on the subject. Lets not derail any further.

Nemesis

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William, can you address this one, what is the historical context that makes it acceptable?

"No, it’s just because Emma was a champion **** and no one else would have her except Joseph. (Needless to say, I don’t think I’ll be checking out the new “Emma Smith as the Exemplar for All Women” movie.)"

Yes, it is a forgery--one that I was even deceived into believing authentic for a period of time.

I originally wrote "wench" and it was subsequently altered (by someone with moderator capabilities) in the original post and also in any post that quoted it. For months they tried to get me to admit to saying that, and I consistently denied it, knowing I had not written such a thing. Then, almost magically one day, they produced a quote. And I was therefore, I felt at the time, compelled to issue an apology for it. Only later did I discover the evidence that it was a forgery. I will soon describe in some detail this and the other methods of propaganda legerdemain employed in the campaign by Mormon apostates to silence my apologetic articles and presentations.

Suffice it to say at present that there are no fewer than three attempts at forgery in MsJack's collection of what are mostly manipulated, out-of-context quotes, or greatly exaggerated claims based on posts typical of online banter. I should note that I have no reason to believe, at this time, that MsJack was complicit in the forgery element of all of this, only that she was entirely indiscriminate and otherwise without compunction when it came to accepting and manipulating information in such a way as to advance her little endeavor.

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Wow! I just finished reading her post.

I recommend Rosalynde Welch's Patheos Essay as highly as anything I've read to date concerning The Dehlinite Movement.

Excellently done.

I don't really disagree with much of what she wrote. A little snarky, but she's just a girl posting on a blog. She's not a PR face of the church. Too bad FARMS didn't let her handle it, instead of cranking out a 100 page footnoted article for their journal. They might still have a job.

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I don't really disagree with much of what she wrote. A little snarky, but she's just a girl posting on a blog. She's not a PR face of the church. Too bad FARMS didn't let her handle it, instead of cranking out a 100 page footnoted article for their journal. They might still have a job.

What "100 page footnoted article" are you talking about? In what volume and issue did this article appear?

And finally: Why am I even bothering to reply to this kind of nonsense?! :fool:

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I don't really disagree with much of what she wrote. A little snarky, but she's just a girl posting on a blog. She's not a PR face of the church. Too bad FARMS didn't let her handle it, instead of cranking out a 100 page footnoted article for their journal. They might still have a job.

Assuming this is what the journal article was going to be about since no one seems to have read it.

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Obvious posters from mdb. I am getting sick of this and will start banning accounts if you continue to try to derail threads like this. I left Will's response because he chose to address it. If I see this again on the open forums expect your account to be shut down.

Nemesis

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I do not trust you to speak for a population of people -- a population you do not claim to represent -- nor to judge who is better or worse than me. Do you think that is cynical of me? What a funny idea. Especially when you do not even understand me.

But talk about cynical.. your arguments rest a great deal on making false accusations about me personally -- a person you do not know.

Two quick points. First I find it ironic that you complain that I am judging and falsely accusing you considering your opening volley towards me. A bit pf that pot and kettle thing.

Second, I simply am sharing my personal experience with LDS members of former members who claim to have become somewhat disaffected and/or left the Church because they have concluded that based on their own studies it is not true nor what it claims to be. I do not claim to represent that entire population nor did I. I do have experience with many both through internet activity and participation in Mormon Stories conferences and listening to podcasts. And I am personally, to a certain level, part of this group, at least to some extent as I have moved from TBM to more NOMish. Thus my comment that few are cynical, seeking to assuage a guilty conscience or any other such things. On their face, based on what they say and post on MBs, they seem quite happy though the transition is very, very hard. It is made harder by the way the Church operates and its culture of frowning on any open dissent or questions that may stir up the pot. Dehlin's Mormon Stories feels that void. Perhaps rather than attacking Dehlin and what he does that energy could be directed to ideas about what some of you may think would a be a better solution to fill that void.

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Obvious posters from mdb. I am getting sick of this and will start banning accounts if you continue to try to derail threads like this. I left Will's response because he chose to address it. If I see this again on the open forums expect your account to be shut down.

Nemesis

For my own benefit (and perhaps for the benefit of any others who may be similarly unclear on what exactly constitutes objectionable posting in this thread), am I to understand that responding to Will's post (which has been permitted to remain) will be considered a derailment punishable by account deactivation? Thanks in advance for clarifying.

Respectfully,

Scott

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What amazes me is those who join because the church is unique and then very soon become disaffected and want the church to change into something like what they have left. So many believe that God, through his church should change to accommodate their favorite sins. There are still others who get sidetracked on to their favorite hobby issue. Still others who thing that if only the church leaders were as smart as they themselves are they would change policy and doctrine.

More often than not people join with very little details about contreversial LDS Church issues/history. Thus when they find out they may rightfully be angry and some become dissaffected. Now in this day and age an investigator can certianly do a lot of research on their own. Maybe that is why baptism rates in more industrialized nations are just horrible. But the Church certianly could give more full disclosure in their teaching process. Take more time, have investigators attend for a while, [pay tithing, etc before they are baptized. May make fewer converts but retentiion would climb I bet.

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I think Dehlin is not so much influencing people as he is meeting them where they are at, offering them understanding, and not trying to get them to go one way or the other in their personal journey.

This is patently FALSE, and it is the one thing, above all, that Greg Smith's article demonstrates.

Dehlin is the prototypical apostate evangelist.

No it is not false as bad as you want it to be. So when do we get to see this paper that lacks an ad hominem attack of Dehlin like the one you just made above?

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Two quick points. First I find it ironic that you complain that I am judging and falsely accusing you considering your opening volley towards me. A bit pf that pot and kettle thing.

You are an exceptionally sensitive soul to find some sort of accusation toward you in my first post:

Yes indeed. Any reasonable person would be unhappy at the prospect of losing Life Eternal.

But, are you saying that John D. fills an ecological niche by helping them to feel better about it?

I am at a loss. Where do you see any sort of personal accusation here?

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Deleted based on moderators point above.

Edited by Teancum

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You are an exceptionally sensitive soul to find some sort of accusation toward you in my first post:

I am at a loss. Where do you see any sort of personal accusation here?

Sorry second post. And the post you quoted was to someone else not me. But no I am not exceptionally sensative at all.

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I submit that virtually EVERY thread on apostate/critic message boards is rife with ad hominem and "tone issues," whereas the same could only be said of a minute fraction of MI articles, if at all.

Is there a difference between internet message boards and scholarly articles?

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For my own benefit (and perhaps for the benefit of any others who may be similarly unclear on what exactly constitutes objectionable posting in this thread), am I to understand that responding to Will's post (which has been permitted to remain) will be considered a derailment punishable by account deactivation? Thanks in advance for clarifying.

Respectfully,

Scott

Yes a clarification would help since I deleted a response I made to Will's extrordinary claim and deleted it based on the moderators comment which I saw after the fact.

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No it is not false as bad as you want it to be. So when do we get to see this paper that lacks an ad hominem attack of Dehlin like the one you just made above?

You see, it doesn't matter how many times someone carefully explains the meaning of "ad hominem" like Ben, Bill, and I (and several others) have attempted to do, the apostates will still insist on characterizing as "ad hominem" anything that they regard as a negative comment.

Now, had I said "John Dehlin doesn't know how to make lemonade because he is an apostate," then I would be guilty of "ad hominem". But simply characterizing Dehlin as the "prototypical apostate evangelist" does not qualify. I'm simply drawing a conclusion based on the evidence that has been presented.

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Sorry second post. And the post you quoted was to someone else not me. But no I am not exceptionally sensative at all.

Oh you are right. My mistake. I did not open with a salvo. You did. Never mind.

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Is there a difference between internet message boards and scholarly articles?

What do you think?

I would say that, in the minds of the apostate mob at MDB, there is apparently no substantive distinction drawn between the two things.

Edited by William Schryver

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Oh you are right. My mistake. I did not open with a salvo. You did. Never mind.

Whatever.

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You see, it doesn't matter how many times someone carefully explains the meaning of "ad hominem" like Ben, Bill, and I (and several others) have attempted to do, the apostates will still insist on characterizing as "ad hominem" anything that they regard as a negative comment.

Now, had I said "John Dehlin doesn't know how to make lemonade because he is an apostate," then I would be guilty of "ad hominem". But simply characterizing Dehlin as the "prototypical apostate evangelist" does not qualify. I'm simply drawing a conclusion based on the evidence that has been presented.

You made the statement with no evidence. You simply made a subjective statement filled with words that push hot buttons and paint a charecterization of a person so that others may be less inclined to form their own opinions. It is a subtle but effective form of a personal attack.

Also please provide evidence that I am an apostate since your post above accuses me as such. Course I know this is your favorite word to hurle at anyone who may disagree with you? Do you fashion yourself as some sort of a modern day Orin Porter Rockwell?

Edited by Teancum

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