39 replies to this topic

[mfbukowski]

......when other secular universities already do that?

Why use tithing funds to promote what is done perfectly well elsewhere?

Just thought I'd ask the question, because no one else seems to be asking it.

For that matter why does BYU exist at all?  Everywhere outside of Utah, kids get their secular knowledge in community colleges or even four year universities without benefiting from tithing funds.

Why don't we just beef up the Church Educational System and the Institutes of Religion and teach some real courses in philosophy of religion which will enable them to really understand rationally what a testimony is and how it stands in relation to questions about science etc?

What ever happened to
"... seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."
and
"We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

We really need to use tithing funds to teach secular topics?
We really need to use tithing funds to teach secular "Mormon Studies"??

[Tacenda]

mfbukowski, on 26 June 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

......when other secular universities already do that?

Why use tithing funds to promote what is done perfectly well elsewhere?

Just thought I'd ask the question, because no one else seems to be asking it.

For that matter why does BYU exist at all?  Everywhere outside of Utah, kids get their secular knowledge in community colleges or even four year universities without benefiting from tithing funds.

Why don't we just beef up the Church Educational System and the Institutes of Religion and teach some real courses in philosophy of religion which will enable them to really understand rationally what a testimony is and how it stands in relation to questions about science etc?

What ever happened to
"... seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."
and
"We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

We really need to use tithing funds to teach secular topics?
We really need to use tithing funds to teach secular "Mormon Studies"??

\

I read on another forum, probably one that isn't sanctioned by people on this forum, that you can get your degree or credits taken away, for lack of better words, if you are a member and then change your belief while attending the school.  I've heard stories that people need to be actively attending their wards.  Of course non members have no problem.  Just the members that go to BYU.  Is this true, or plain hogwash?

[CA Steve]

Are you saying that secular Mormon studies done at BYU would not reinforce LDS beliefs?

[calmoriah]

If one is excommunicated or has their name removed, they can no longer attend BYU.  If you have classes to finish, you need to do so at other places.

Nonmembers are not subsidized by the tithing of faithful Saints nor do they make the same commitments.

Define "actively".  They do have to get a yearly endorsement from their bishop, nonmembers from their own religious leaders last I heard.

[calmoriah]

CA Steve, on 26 June 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Are you saying that secular Mormon studies done at BYU would not reinforce LDS beliefs?

No, he is saying use tithing money to teach stuff that only the Church will teach, if you can find other avenues to learn the same stuff, is it a good investment for furthering the mission of the Church to invest major tithing dollars in redundant areas?

[Tacenda]

calmoriah, on 26 June 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

If one is excommunicated or has their name removed, they can no longer attend BYU.  If you have classes to finish, you need to do so at other places.

Nonmembers are not subsidized by the tithing of faithful Saints nor do they make the same commitments.

Define "actively".  They do have to get a yearly endorsement from their bishop, nonmembers from their own religious leaders last I heard.

Ok, that makes more sense.  Since members are using tithing money, they should be active in the church.  Thanks for putting it into perspective.

[mfbukowski]

CA Steve, on 26 June 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Are you saying that secular Mormon studies done at BYU would not reinforce LDS beliefs?

In a word, "no".

Of course what is happening is that the Maxwell Institute, which is part of BYU as I understand it, would be publishing papers on Mormon Studies, which is not the same as "teaching" Mormon Studies.

[mfbukowski]

calmoriah, on 26 June 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

No, he is saying use tithing money to teach stuff that only the Church will teach, if you can find other avenues to learn the same stuff, is it a good investment for furthering the mission of the Church to invest major tithing dollars in redundant areas?

What she said.  

She is very good at translating into human- I only speak Bukowski.

[Buzzard]

Tacenda, on 26 June 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

\

I read on another forum, probably one that isn't sanctioned by people on this forum, that you can get your degree or credits taken away, for lack of better words, if you are a member and then change your belief while attending the school.  I've heard stories that people need to be actively attending their wards.  Of course non members have no problem.  Just the members that go to BYU.  Is this true, or plain hogwash?

You cannot have a degree or credits taken away. You can be dismissed if you are no longer living the Honor Code. This can include not attending meetings, though going home on the weekend and attending meetings in your parents ward is fine. Several years ago, the church actually evaluated and addressed the question in the OP, and decided that having BYU was of great value to the church, and not just because of the football team. The talk outlining the reasons they kept BYU is certainly out there in the interwebs, if one is curious enough to track it down.

[CA Steve]

mfbukowski, on 26 June 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

In a word, "no".

Of course what is happening is that the Maxwell Institute, which is part of BYU as I understand it, would be publishing papers on Mormon Studies, which is not the same as "teaching" Mormon Studies.

I am not sure what secular Mormon studies means as taught at BYU.

Edited by CA Steve, 26 June 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[CA Steve]

Delete

Edited by CA Steve, 26 June 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Greg Kofford Books]

A major concern among some at BYU is that their students are very under-prepared for graduate religious studies programs (a challenge I witnessed on more than a few occasions, where BYU-grads faced existential crises when being thrown deep into academic waters). For this reason, they have been trying push a minor in religious studies at the University (and facing much push-back from some in religious education). If they do eventually begin to teach actual religious studies at BYU, it would be odd (and perhaps disingenuous) to not apply the same methodologies to Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

Greg Kofford Books, on 26 June 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

A major concern among some at BYU is that their students are very under-prepared for graduate religious studies programs (a challenge I witnessed on more than a few occasions, where BYU-grads faced existential crises when being thrown deep into academic waters). For this reason, they have been trying push a minor in religious studies at the University (and facing much push-back from some in religious education). If they do eventually begin to teach actual religious studies at BYU, it would be odd (and perhaps disingenuous) to not apply the same methodologies to Mormonism.

Totally agree

We have such a fear of the "philosophies of men" and yet no understanding of how Mormonism can be compatible with a theistic humanism, for example.

The entire problem in my opinion is that students are not taught the philosophical tools needed to cope with the criticisms found in the world, though clearly such tools exist.  I am in the church because I found the philosophy before I found the church itself.

Clearly that knowledge and understanding needs to be taught somewhere, but if you can't get away with doing it in the church educational system, and I think even the BYU philosophy department doesn't want to touch it.

I don't know how this can be resolved, but it must be.  There have to be some changes somewhere- one side or other will have to give.

But spending tithing funds in a BYU sponsored institute to do "secular" Mormon Studies, something which is already being done better elsewhere, makes no sense to me whatsoever

[Mike Reed]

Are not tithing funds used for math, business, psychology, sociology, history, anthropology, english, foreign language, writing courses, etc, at BYU?  Obviously, these courses are also taught elsewhere... so I'm not sure what the problem is.

Edited by Mike Reed, 26 June 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

CA Steve, on 26 June 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Are you saying that secular Mormon studies done at BYU would not reinforce LDS beliefs?

If they are done from the scholarly standards of real scholarship that's what I would say. I tried to say so in my thread I started. It is precisely WHY (one reason anyway) the church keeps things so simple silly dumbed down. I am NOT trying to insult. All one has to do is start reading the Biblical scholars to see this as plainly as seeing the sun on a cloudless day. Those scholars are *seriously* rigorous, astonishingly complete in so much analysis that their books are usually well on the way to being over 1,000 pages (and that's just the FIRST volume of multiple volume sets). They bring out at least 100 times more information than I have ever even heard of in church (Joseph Fitzmyer's books on Luke in the Anchor Bible series is a perfect example of what I mean).....

[Kerry A. Shirts]

mfbukowski, on 26 June 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Totally agree

We have such a fear of the "philosophies of men" and yet no understanding of how Mormonism can be compatible with a theistic humanism, for example.

The entire problem in my opinion is that students are not taught the philosophical tools needed to cope with the criticisms found in the world, though clearly such tools exist.  I am in the church because I found the philosophy before I found the church itself.

Clearly that knowledge and understanding needs to be taught somewhere, but if you can't get away with doing it in the church educational system, and I think even the BYU philosophy department doesn't want to touch it.

I don't know how this can be resolved, but it must be.  There have to be some changes somewhere- one side or other will have to give.

But spending tithing funds in a BYU sponsored institute to do "secular" Mormon Studies, something which is already being done better elsewhere, makes no sense to me whatsoever

And thus so far have we slid in the comedown on increasing our eternal intelligence from Joseph's and Brigham's day. I well remember my own crisis when I graduated and tried to get ANY of my college credits from Ricks College in Rexburg transferred. Idaho State University would take only 1 credit! JUST 1! Two years of complete wasted money and time academically speaking. And our morbidly ridiculous fears of "the philosophies of men" has simply GOT TO STOP. Utter pap. OUR teachings are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture also. No one other than Blake Ostler demonstrated that to me. This morbid fear of thinking and assuming that because the entire whole world everywhere is in apostasy and therefore the ONLY reasonable place to go for truth is in the church is utterly wrong and wrong headed. Considering the scripture which teaches in the last days the Lord's spirit will be poured out on ALL men and even children shall prophesy, our assumptions of supposedly evil or wicked or even incorrect knowledge is ridiculous. Ah but I ranteth on, for which I apologize.

[Areabird]

I thought one of the purposes of BYU was to build an educated core of the faithful so they could go out reinforce wards everywhere as they move about the country.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Areabird, on 26 June 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I thought one of the purposes of BYU was to build an educated core of the faithful so they could go out reinforce wards everywhere as they move about the country.

Yes, but they are now dismantling the MI, so it's going backwards again........

[mfbukowski]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 26 June 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

And thus so far have we slid in the comedown on increasing our eternal intelligence from Joseph's and Brigham's day. I well remember my own crisis when I graduated and tried to get ANY of my college credits from Ricks College in Rexburg transferred. Idaho State University would take only 1 credit! JUST 1! Two years of complete wasted money and time academically speaking. And our morbidly ridiculous fears of "the philosophies of men" has simply GOT TO STOP. Utter pap. OUR teachings are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture also. No one other than Blake Ostler demonstrated that to me. This morbid fear of thinking and assuming that because the entire whole world everywhere is in apostasy and therefore the ONLY reasonable place to go for truth is in the church is utterly wrong and wrong headed. Considering the scripture which teaches in the last days the Lord's spirit will be poured out on ALL men and even children shall prophesy, our assumptions of supposedly evil or wicked or even incorrect knowledge is ridiculous. Ah but I ranteth on, for which I apologize.

I like Ostler's stuff very much but I think he does not go far enough in going toe to toe with contemporary philosophers.  Again, it was my training in process philosophy which helped me to find the church.  Ostler is also considered a "process philosopher" by many, but in my opinion he doesn't go far enough in confronting the real issues in process philosophy, and unfortunately in my opinion, he sometimes lapses back into a kind of Neoplatonic vocabulary.  But perhaps that is because he is walking a fine line between "orthodoxy" and doing full-on process theology as done at say, Claremont.

But I certainly don't disagree with much of what I have read of him, I just wish he would push it farther in considering the implications of the positions he takes.  I kind of wish he would take on some of Rorty's inconsistencies about theism, for example or take on Boghossian's Fear of Knowledge

Edited by mfbukowski, 26 June 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Bikeemikey]

It is entirely reasonable for Mormons to want to be expert on the secular world of study relating to their own Mormon religion.

I have a question, "why would anyone think Mormons would not want to be leading the way in secular studies of the own religion?".