9 replies to this topic

[Mehrdad]

Abraham is from Ur of the Chaldees or is he from Nahor?  I found something as I was searching through the internet and I've listed the link below.  

http://jbq.jewishbib...2_urkeshfin.pdf

So does this mean that Abraham is European in origin?  And he's not a Semite since he wanted son to marry a wife from his own people.  Canaan was full of Semites, so why did he send his servant to Nahor to his "own" people who could be Horites and European in Origin.  

Now to the DNA world, King Tuts Y DNA is R1b, which is from the same haplogroup as Joseph Smith.  So if Joseph Smith is R1b and King Tut is also R1b, thus making the rulers of Egypt basically European in origin, that would mean that Abraham's dna would likely be R1b.  

This seems to correlate to the DNA of the Native Americans of the great lakes, who's predominant Y-DNA is R1b, which some are claiming to be European or "coureurs du bois" and English settlers, however debate is still up in the air whether these are recent, meaning post European or pre Columbus, which would be the ancient Nephites and Lamanites.

[Ron Beron]

Mehrdad, on 25 June 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Abraham is from Ur of the Chaldees or is he from Nahor?  I found something as I was searching through the internet and I've listed the link below.  

http://jbq.jewishbib...2_urkeshfin.pdf

So does this mean that Abraham is European in origin?  And he's not a Semite since he wanted son to marry a wife from his own people.  Canaan was full of Semites, so why did he send his servant to Nahor to his "own" people who could be Horites and European in Origin.  

Now to the DNA world, King Tuts Y DNA is R1b, which is from the same haplogroup as Joseph Smith.  So if Joseph Smith is R1b and King Tut is also R1b, thus making the rulers of Egypt basically European in origin, that would mean that Abraham's dna would likely be R1b.  

This seems to correlate to the DNA of the Native Americans of the great lakes, who's predominant Y-DNA is R1b, which some are claiming to be European or "coureurs du bois" and English settlers, however debate is still up in the air whether these are recent, meaning post European or pre Columbus, which would be the ancient Nephites and Lamanites.

An interesting premise, but hard to prove since the Bible doesn't really state which Ur Abraham traveled from.  There were several.  Biblical Archaeology Review had an interesting article on this very same thing awhile back...

Quote

Where Was Abraham’s Ur? The Case for the Babylonian City
By a Was the patriarch born in some northern Mesopotamian Ur rather than in Babylonia? I believe the case for identifying the Ur (of the Chaldees) in 31 (compare with 1 According to an Alalakh text of about 1600 B.C., a village named Urê lay at the western edge of the Fertile Crescent.3 The Nuzi tablets from about 1400 B.C. name a Great Uri and a Small Uri in Nuzi’s vicinity.5 The Ura in question is now identified as a port on the coast of Cilicia, perhaps modern Gilindere.7 Still another Ura existed at the same time, according to Hittite texts, and may be located near modern Amasya in north central Turkey.9
Neither the Cilician port nor the sites in northern Turkey are likely candidates for Abraham’s Ur. They are too far out of the way, and they are not known to have had a West Semitic populace.
(3) The modern town of Urfa, called Orhai in Syriac sources and Edessa in Greek, maintains a traditional association with Abraham, but it may not date to the pre-Christian era. The name Orhai is of unknown origin, but if related to the biblical Ur, it is surprising that the final syllable is not represented in Hebrew. The modern form of the name Urfa cannot be traced prior to Turkish times.2 Kings 17:6) and so possibly lay west of the Tigris,12 Three tablets trace a route from Larsa, 25 miles north of southern Ur, to Emar, going via Haran. The route did not follow the Euphrates; perhaps to avoid hostile territory, it ran further east, up the Tigris, swinging west across Upper Mesopotamia.
(2) Another objection is that a route from southern Ur to Canaan via Haran is quite roundabout. There may have been reasons for this that we cannot discover, but Ur and Haran were the two main centers for worship of the Moon-god, Sin. The names Terah (Abraham’s father) and Laban, and possibly Milcah and Sarah, may be linked to the moon cult. Terah may well have been associated with the worship of the moon (see Genesis 31:21). But the course of the Euphrates River near Ur in the second millennium B.C. is not well defined. Woolley stated that the “river washed the foot of the western rampart,” taking a new course to the east during the mid-first millennium B.C.BAR 27:03, May/Jun 2001

Frankly, I think that Abraham was not Jewish, not Semitic, and not Canaanite, but certainly Indo-European or at least exposed to Indo-European culture.

[Ron Beron]

The second part of your premise is also interesting and may have a rational answer.  Tut and his family were significantly impacted by the influence of Hyksos which some believe were among an influx of Indo-Europeans into Egypt.

[Mehrdad]

Ron Beron, on 25 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

The second part of your premise is also interesting and may have a rational answer.  Tut and his family were significantly impacted by the influence of Hyksos which some believe were among an influx of Indo-Europeans into Egypt.

The Mittani and Hittite Kingdoms were in the same vicinity, or at least they had smaller kingdoms in the area before they grew into larger empires.  These two kingdoms were Indo-European speakers.  It could very well be that Abraham was a noble of one of these people.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Somewhere I saw a book which said that Abraham was from Mesopotamia......never did buy it, rather pricey for its size....

[Ron Beron]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 27 June 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Somewhere I saw a book which said that Abraham was from Mesopotamia......never did buy it, rather pricey for its size....

If he was from southern Mesopotamia (Ur) then it seems highly unlikely he would have made the trek that far from his home.  I'm betting on northern Mesopotamia along Syria.

[Mehrdad]

Ron Beron, on 27 June 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

If he was from southern Mesopotamia (Ur) then it seems highly unlikely he would have made the trek that far from his home.  I'm betting on northern Mesopotamia along Syria.

I agree, and he wouldn't have sent his servant to Nahor which is in Northern Mesopotamia, to "his people" to get a bride for his son.

Kerry - Some make the mistake of classifying Mesopotamia as a kingdom when indeed it was a region in which many small kingdoms resided.  It was only later on that some of these smaller Kingdoms started consolidating their power in the region, and thus the birth of Empires in Mesopotamia.

Edited by Mehrdad, 28 June 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Mehrdad, on 28 June 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

I agree, and he wouldn't have sent his servant to Nahor which is in Northern Mesopotamia, to "his people" to get a bride for his son.

Kerry - Some make the mistake of classifying Mesopotamia as a kingdom when indeed it was a region in which many small kingdoms resided.  It was only later on that some of these smaller Kingdoms started consolidating their power in the region, and thus the birth of Empires in Mesopotamia.

Ahhhhh, well I never bought the book darn me........but this sounds like something I would expect....

[Robert F. Smith]

Mehrdad, on 25 June 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Abraham is from Ur of the Chaldees or is he from Nahor?  I found something as I was searching through the internet and I've listed the link below.  

http://jbq.jewishbib...2_urkeshfin.pdf

So does this mean that Abraham is European in origin?  And he's not a Semite since he wanted son to marry a wife from his own people.  Canaan was full of Semites, so why did he send his servant to Nahor to his "own" people who could be Horites and European in Origin.  

Now to the DNA world, King Tuts Y DNA is R1b, which is from the same haplogroup as Joseph Smith.  So if Joseph Smith is R1b and King Tut is also R1b, thus making the rulers of Egypt basically European in origin, that would mean that Abraham's dna would likely be R1b.  

This seems to correlate to the DNA of the Native Americans of the great lakes, who's predominant Y-DNA is R1b, which some are claiming to be European or "coureurs du bois" and English settlers, however debate is still up in the air whether these are recent, meaning post European or pre Columbus, which would be the ancient Nephites and Lamanites.

The problem you face here is that R1b is also found in Eurasia, South Asia, North Africa (including Egypt), and Subsaharan Central Africa, and can only be used when more detailed analysis of the R1b is made (into sub clades, twigs, and branches).  See http://en.wikipedia....oup_R1b_(Y-DNA) .

[Mehrdad]

Robert F. Smith, on 29 June 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

The problem you face here is that R1b is also found in Eurasia, South Asia, North Africa (including Egypt), and Subsaharan Central Africa, and can only be used when more detailed analysis of the R1b is made (into sub clades, twigs, and branches).  See http://en.wikipedia....oup_R1b_(Y-DNA) .

Which is why I am a very strong advocate of SNP testing.  Once we are able to get SNPs of these R1b's in North America, it will give us a clear indication of when they arrived on the Continent.