Okay, so I am getting tired of these, but in light of recent events all around, one more thread. John Dehlin just posted a new video "What is Mormon Stories, and How to Keep It Alive". An unnamed ungendered associate (all very vague to prevent any concerns about privacy) who loves John Dehlin and Mormon Stories shared the link:
Since it's his direct views, I think it useful for review here. I personally won't review this particular thread until I have viewed it in full and formed and written my own opinions. But It will be interesting to get others input also.
AS THE FOUNDER OF THIS THREAD:
DO NOT POST AN OPINION of the video or Mormon Stories if you have not watched the video and have some working familiarity with Mormon Stories itself. I desire this to be academic and low on rhetoric in nature.
Edited to Add: Warning: Video is 35 minutes long.
Edited by Matthew J. Tandy, 25 June 2012 - 10:13 AM.
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
For the Maxwell/FAIR folks, and anyone else who wants to understand what we're trying to do (and NOT trying to do) with Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation.
Pffft... John, Way late. I psoted this like 20 minutes ago.;-)
I even set up rules to keep it clean!
Edited by Matthew J. Tandy, 25 June 2012 - 10:25 AM.
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
Thanks for the link John! Love mormonstories and I'm assuming my phone in autodownloading it right now so I can't wait to listen to it on my commute back!
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
I am listening and taking notes right now. I'll psot my summary notes after some formatting later, posting my views on it in a separate post in the thread. That way people who don't have 35 minutes to spare can get the basics.
FYI, there is a 6:30 "Short Version" that covers some very basic basics of the stance presented. It's the same video, jsut the first 6:30 of it.
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
Yes, there is advertising going on it it. That is not the purpose of me posting this, since I obviously disagree with Dehlin and Mormon Stories claimed objectives, or at least their actual execution. However, your post does not discuss the actual claims as requested. No more comments from anyone of this nature will be allowed, as I will delete them. I want to get to the meat of the matter, which is what does Dehlin himself say his group and podcasts are for, and if that gels with reality or is even based on reasonable assumptions.
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
I am sending a note to the mods to delete all of the posts after my last one with the warning. This is about a VERY SPECIFIC review of a VERY SPECIFIC video. Those who have posted otherwise, no matter their good intentions, obviously have not read or chose to ignore the minimal content in the first post.
Edited by Matthew J. Tandy, 25 June 2012 - 04:06 PM.
"There are those who mock our beliefs in the most uncharitable ways. And we will bear what they do with long-suffering, for it does not change truth. And in their own way they move our work along a little faster."
Edit: Wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm a little dyslexic today...
My take is that Mormon Stories (MS) tries to play it both ways. The part towards the end comparing people's faith crises and choices to rafts and saying that "every" possible choice is ok clearly demonstrates this. It also says a lot about MS's true position relative to the truth claims of the church. You can't say it's "ok" to become a rabid hate-filled ex-Mormon if you have even a slight testimony that the church is true and represents the only way to salvation.
Edited by DispensatorMysteriorum, 25 June 2012 - 04:08 PM.
Matthew J. Tandy, on 25 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:
I am sending a note to the mods to delete all of the posts after my last one with the warning. This is about a VERY SPECIFIC review of a VERY SPECIFIC video. Those who have posted otherwise, no matter their good intentions, obviously have not read or chose to ignore the minimal content in the first post.
Please send invidual reports or post numbers so it is easier to decipher which posts you want hidden.
Matthew J. Tandy, on 25 June 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:
Since it's his direct views, I think it useful for review here. I personally won't review this particular thread until I have viewed it in full and formed and written my own opinions. But It will be interesting to get others input also.
I think he makes it clear that his organization is a place for people to turn for support in faith transition. I think he is careful not to portray the transition as necessarily being one-way (away from the Church), but it is clear his premise is that the Church and its culture (family, friends, as well as the affected) are ineffective in being able to satisfcatorily process and resolve the pain and suffering of disbelief and disaffection. This approach points to the Church and its culture, as much as he says he loves and appreciates them, as part of the cause of the problem of pain and suffering, which I do not agree with.
As with all pain and suffering, this kind can be alleviated with substitutes or with the real thing. I belive the Church provides the real thing, and human nature can certainly interfere with that. I think this might be an example where there is a loss of faith, substitutes are very attractive options.
Ok I struggled to listen to the whole thing because my bull sh*t meter was screaming so loud. The thing that strikes me the most is the names of Jesus Christ or Heavenly Father are not spoken of once, not even one time. Why when people are having faith problems and they cannot speak to their bishop, friends, spouse etc are they not counseled to get down on their knees and pray in a humble spirit to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ?
I heard a lot about Mormon culture and nothing about the Gospel. It's not the Mormon Church people! It's the Church of Jesus Christ. started by Jesus Christ and ran by Jesus Christ through His prophet and apostles. Of course there is ugly stuff in the history of the Church, Humans are basically ugly, stiffnecked, hardheaded and hard hearted. I'm a convert, i know what evil looks like up real close. A few problems here and there are to be expected. I cannot imagine a problem so drastic that I could not speak to my wife about it or my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in no particular order.
I understand what it feels like to be all alone but i cannot understand how people can set aside their spiritual experiences for the words of men. No matter what anybody shows me or tells me I could never deny the time that Heavenly Father spoke to me directly and through the Holy Spirit. The only way I will ever believe the BOA, The D&C, and the BOM are not historical scripture is if Heavenly Father tells me so..
I also don't have a problem with people staying in the Church for cultural reasons, I don't understand it, but I don't have a problem with it as long as they don't pretend and try to teach me or counsel me or attend the Temple. i don't belive they should have a calling that requires any of these things if they don't believe the Gospel is true and the Church is ran by Jesus Christ
There is a harvest going on right now and I sincerely hope and pray many people repent and return to Jesus Christ. Come home we love you and so does your Heavenly Father.. Remember the times He spoke to you in your prayers, in your dreams and even in your sleep..
Proverbs 2
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and ahide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine aheart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the afear of the Lord, and find the bknowledge of God. 6 For the Lord giveth awisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and bunderstanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a abuckler to them that bwalk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. 9 Then shalt thou aunderstand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path. 10 ¶ When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 aDiscretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; 13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to awalk in the ways of darkness;
.
Edited by rodheadlee, 25 June 2012 - 07:51 PM.
A lot of people want to serve God, but only in an advisory capacity. - Mrs Miracle
Matthew J. Tandy, on 25 June 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:
DO NOT POST AN OPINION of the video or Mormon Stories if you have not watched the video and have some working familiarity with Mormon Stories itself. I desire this to be academic and low on rhetoric in nature.
I complied with the request and made it through this video…well at least into the final 4 minutes when it was all about the fund raising.
Brevity is a challenge for me but I will make this as short as possible.
Well…here I am 2 minutes later sitting at my keyboard, fingers poised…and nothings coming out. Hoping just starting will get it going…
I listened to the video and took cut and paste shots to remind me of portions I might comment on. From the list of why his efforts are needed … ostensibly to support the 92%. 85% 74% 73% 72% 66% 58% that “won’t talk with” it becomes obvious that won’t talk is a big part of the problem. Ostensibly again he seems to be positing that it is seemingly that the fear of rejection, reprisal, and embarrassment is the cause of all this not talking.
His list of what they are not trying to do builds a false sense of neutrality which by definition simply does not exist. Even if he thinks he is neutral, it is apparent that he is not. I have only watched one other POD-CAST. It was the Benji Schwimmer one. Genuinely, I felt his pain, I appreciated his candor, I actually felt myself develop a since of love for the beauty of his spirit and soul. This only lead to sorrow, as no matter how much I want to be loving and accepting I realize that if people choose a path counter to the one that actually leads to the goal, they do not reach the goal. In other words, it comes down to the Joseph Smith statement “there is a time for decisions of character aside from sympathy.” I can’t sublet my testimony of obedience to my heartfelt appreciation of the difficulties of this existence and I still must accept that when our friends and loved ones transgress the single greatest effort is in powerful prayer for the blessing that will help them find the correct path.
If I choose instead to accept them for who they are in a way that fails to comprehend that the nature of their existence in opposition to God, then two losses occur. First, I become the enabler that condones sinful behavior and the individual loses any since of distinction of my charitable hope in their behalf. And second my own testimony and faith falter as I fail to see the need of involving God in a process of faith that may only improve upon acts of faith. Thus there are, and it is a valid observation if you have watched the testimonies of enablers falter after they acquiesce to the rightness of their friends or family's choices, thus there are two losses.
This in my opinion is the primary result of everything Dehlin is accomplishing, he gives people excuses to stop resisting evil and he provides an environment of justification that lets supporters think it is okay.
Nonetheless, while I firmly believe that of his hundred, 99 will continue their march to mediocrity or completely out of the church, I still acknowledge that if he slows one down, who is strengthened enough to take a breath before doing something rash there is potential value. Towards the end he states, “usually when people leave that place of traditional belief they leave it for good”. If he slows one of those down long enough that they take the time to get their bearings right then there is worth.
Still, if one does get their bearing and begins to come back it will never be upon the principles that Dehlin espouses or even thinks he is accommodating. They will have to completely divorce themselves of the equivocating disaffection and the pandering to mediocrity of his world view, and once again begin to walk in the straight and narrow path of obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ.
0
