At this point I am not advocating a picket type protest but I can see where why me is coming from. The question is, is it worse to show the world we are against injustice where ever it happens or to let our actions indicate we condone what has happened. I, like you think we should wait a short while to see what direction those involved decide to take.
I understand it too. How the turnover has happened is highly disturbing to me as well. I am only suggesting caution so that everyone is acting on the same page so as to make any response the most effective possible.
Slapdash, kneejerk reactions without thought.....seems to me what has caused some of the problem so far. Why not let clear, cautious, effective, orderly and prepared action be the response?
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
Lets hope for a fight back. Silence in such cases never changes the injustice.
Knowing who is involved, the idea that the response would be silence is highly unlikely.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
Notice she wrote the word 'ousted' and not replaced. Brother Bradford had allowed the press to use such language by his actions. This is why I am hoping for a fightback.
Edited by why me, 22 June 2012 - 03:50 PM.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
No mention of being fired via e-mail. Guess Peggy didn't think it was important. Imagine that.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes. - Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts"
No mention of being fired via e-mail. Guess Peggy didn't think it was important. Imagine that.
She may not have known. She may just have the bare facts: Dan was ousted. But I would have used purged.
Edited by why me, 22 June 2012 - 03:56 PM.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
So Ms. Stack thinks this is linked to the Dehlin episode?
I also think that her making reference to John calling in some favors with the GAs does not help the situation. Sounds like the Mafia.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
i am going to make a prediction. As the press begins to heat up, I do believe that brother bradford will be called in and replaced. Too much bad feeling about the way he has handled this. And not very loving.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
"I have had enough conversations with general authorities to know," Dehlin said this week, "that they don’t view ad hominem attacks as a constructive way to do apologetics."
To print such half-truths without verification seems journalistically lazy. It is a shame she doesn't understand that (1) Dehlin and those on his side--including the purported-yet-unnamed GA--have not read the article and (2) an essay that analyzes Dehlin's group, tactics, and positioning is no different than a SLTrib article that looks at the Maxwell Institute group, editorial tactics, and change of positioning.
Fascinating.
Belief and unbelief are personal choices. The choice is what separates athiest from Christian, anti-Mormon from Mormon, and man from God.
I note, for the record, that none of the editors except Dan has had any direct communication with Bradford about this decision. They were never informed that they have been dismissed. Indeed, Lou Midgley is out of the country on vacation, and does not have internet access, and has no idea what's going on. Even if this change is a good idea, treating people this way, after years of service, is simply shameful.
Why are you calling it "dismissal"? In the Church we give people "callings," which usually lasts for a limited period of time, and they are given an "honourable release". Nobody stays in any job forever, in or out of the Church. It is always a good idea to change faces from time to time, bring in fresh blood, and move in different directions. So I don't really know what the fuss is all about. If it is true that these brethren have been serving in those positions for as long as 23 years or thereabouts, I should have thought the time was overdue to make a change. Why should they be upset at the change?
Someone is selling a canard that apologetics is necessarily contentious and I fear from the external evidence it may be succeeding in shutting up voices that support the Saints in the face of calumny.
I don't think anybody is saying that apologetics is necessarily contentious. What they are saying is that Peterson's vision for, shall we say, provocative apologetics, is in fact contentious; his brand of apologetics goes beyond dealing with the arguments and goes into speculations of motives and character of the authors being reviewed. It's as if Peterson interpreted the directive "don't let them have any uncontested slam dunks" as a license to commit flagrant fouls on people who were going for legitimate dunks if doing so was the only way to contest it.
When these personal attacks are made against relatively high-profile members who are in good standing with the church according to their ecclesiastical leaders, it isn't surprising that the people in charge think a line has been crossed. If the church is taking a "big tent" approach and letting people like Dehlin remain members in good standing, would the MI be overstepping its bounds by publishing in a church-owned publication that specific members in good standing are really wolves in sheep's clothing?
Edited by Analytics, 22 June 2012 - 04:10 PM.
You can’t talk your way out of problems you behave yourself into.
Trib; "sometimes writing scathing and often personal attacks on those who challenged LDS origins. It was, they believed, the essence of apologetics".
I cannot begin to count the number of critics, over the years, who have plainly stated that ad hominem apologetics masquerading as scholarship was useless. As odd as it sounds, critics have always been willing to tell believing mormons how to improve their public discourse with regards to apologetics. Have we not said that individuals like Dan, indeed cause more harm than good?
When a swift decicive move comes into play, and coincides with what many critics had previously addressed, the fur sure does seem to fly. We told you so. Do not pretend to be so shocked.
The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; " - Apostle Heber C. Kimball
I don't think anybody is saying that apologetics is necessarily contentious. What they are saying is that Peterson's vision for, shall we say, provocative apologetics, is in fact contentious; his brand of apologetics goes beyond dealing with the arguments and goes into speculations of motives and character of the authors being reviewed. It's as if Peterson interpreted the directive "don't let them have any uncontested slam dunks" as a license to commit flagrant fouls on people who were going for legitimate dunks if doing so was the only way to contest it.
When these personal attacks are made against relatively high-profile members who are in good standing with the church according to their ecclesiastical leaders, it isn't surprising that the people in charge think a line has been crossed. If the church is taking a "big tent" approach and letting people like Dehlin remain members in good standing, would the MI be overstepping its bounds by publishing in a church-owned publication that specific members in good standing are really wolves in sheep's clothing?
And here you go again attacking Dan.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you’re a mile away and you have their shoes. - Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts"
would the MI be overstepping its bounds by publishing in a church-owned publication that specific members in good standing are really wolves in sheep's clothing?
Have you read the article in question?
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
To print such half-truths without verification seems journalistically lazy. It is a shame she doesn't understand that (1) Dehlin and those on his side--including the purported-yet-unnamed GA--
Fascinating.
It is not just an unnamed GA but GAs. He is claiming to be in contact with several GAs and having conversations with them. Quite amazing. I wonder if John has an office in the church office building.
Edited by why me, 22 June 2012 - 04:23 PM.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
I should also add that in any professional organization, the old editor is never released until the new editor has been chosen and is in place ready to editor. Furthermore, the old editor is always part of the committee to select the new editor. None of this is happening at the Institute.
Remember what Bradford actually said in this regard:
what we need to do to properly affect this change in the Review is to ask someone else, someone working in the mainstream of Mormon studies, who has a comparable vision to my own for what it can accomplish, to edit the publication and devote whatever time it takes to make this happen. I plan to begin the process of finding a new editor right away. At the same time, I would welcome your continued involvement as a member of its soon-to-be-formed editorial advisory board.
If Dan would have been more congenial and "agreed to disagree" on this, he would now being assisting Bradford in his search for an editor who wanted to edit the Mormon Studies Review in accordance with the Institute's current vision.
You can’t talk your way out of problems you behave yourself into.
I don't think so. A picket line can be quite good. How should one fight injustice and unfairness? it is not the church but an academic institution that has committed the injustice. The way that this institution has fired dan and the board is unbecoming of an institution that claims to be lds.
What happens if you learn that this decision (whatever mistakes were made in its carrying out) was influenced by much higher authorities? Will you call for a picket line at Church headquarters, or perhaps local Ward meeting houses?
This is a Church institution and cooler heads need to prevail. Dr. Peterson is going to be fine. BYU is going to be fine. The Institute will survive this change, and so will the Church.
No. All I know is that in the judment of the MI's director (which we now know does in fact have the full support of BYU), the article wasn't suitable for publication in Mormon Stories Review. I know that the people who have read it and would like to see it published have been talking about the need to call out wolves in sheep's clothing. Do you think I'm putting the pieces together incorrectly? It seems pretty obvious to me what's going on here.
Edited by Analytics, 22 June 2012 - 04:45 PM.
You can’t talk your way out of problems you behave yourself into.
Lets hope for a fight back. Silence in such cases never changes the injustice.
Quote
This will be brief. I may or may not have other comments on the topic in the future, depending on how and where things go. I still want to be careful. I have no desire to injure either the Maxwell Institute or the University, and I’m not particularly interested in a glorious martyrdom. (There will, I fear, be grievous damage to the Institute, but it won’t come at my hands.)
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
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ERayR, on 22 June 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:
